Almost shot a dog, scared the owner, too

[Superhouse 15]

OK, I wasn't going to post this real "situation", but I decided to get the comments and opinions of the group. Last weekend I was pushing my year and a half old son around the Daytona flea market in his stroller. Bought some fresh pickles and vegetables and looked at the Elvis and Bruce lee paintings on velvet and enjoyed the walk. As the wife was looking at something, I noticed a guy walking a dog on a leash up in front of us. The dog took one look at my son and charged right for the stroller. The owner was paying no attention until the leash ran out and the dog was pulling his arm. The dog was stopped about 8 feet short of the stroller. I went to red alert. The dog had his lip curled back, no noise though. I'm not sure what kind of dog it was, white and fluffy, medium sized, but not a poodle. I had pulled the stroller back and around me and was reaching my thumb under the edge of my Tshirt to lift it out of the way to prepare to draw when the owner looked up to see what the dog was doing and why it was pulling on his arm so hard I guess. For some reason, he pulled the dog back and rushed off. I had not yet drawn, or even exposed my gun. No one else, including my unarmed wife, seemed to notice anything. I had no time to verbally warn him, or perhaps I haven't trained on my verbal skills enough. I have used my "command voice" in past situations with some success, not this time, though. Task saturation? I imagine I had quite an intense look on my face. I'm sure my posture suggested I was about to draw a gun, unless it could be mistaken for something else. I ran into no further problems, got a good deal on fishing stuff, and passed on the Elvis painting. FWIW, I was carrying a P7M8 H&K, one spare magazine, and a Kel Tec .32. I had a Cold Steel knife in my pocket. I am also a dog owner and bear no particular ill will towards animals, although I treat the tasty ones in a way sure to annoy PETA and the like.

Your thoughts are welcome as always, as are comments and criticism of my actions. Let's all learn a few things from each other.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[ExactlyMyPoint]

This is just me, but you were in a crowded location, a medium sized dog was about to "attack" your son and you were going to draw and fire. Me thinks that would not have been a pretty situation.

My first thought is to protect your son. Good job standing between the dog and your son. The next step would be to stop the dog, but at this point, I am thinking lethal force would have been excessive. Perhaps something else. Pepper spray, a stick, anything else. I realize it went down fast, but if you would have fired a shot, bad things would have happened. I would consider having a range of responses from
command voice <--> non-lethal responses <--> lethal responses

Glad everything worked out OK.

[shooterX]

This is just me, but you were in a crowded location, a medium sized dog was about to "attack" your son and you were going to draw and fire. Me thinks that would not have been a pretty situation.

My first thought is to protect your son. Good job standing between the dog and your son. The next step would be to stop the dog, but at this point, I am thinking lethal force would have been excessive. Perhaps something else. Pepper spray, a stick, anything else. I realize it went down fast, but if you would have fired a shot, bad things would have happened. I would consider having a range of responses from
command voice <--> non-lethal responses <--> lethal responses

Glad everything worked out OK.

I agree, especially since the Owner still had the dog leashed.

[boricua]

This is just me, but you were in a crowded location, a medium sized dog was about to "attack" your son and you were going to draw and fire. Me thinks that would not have been a pretty situation.

My first thought is to protect your son. Good job standing between the dog and your son. The next step would be to stop the dog, but at this point, I am thinking lethal force would have been excessive. Perhaps something else. Pepper spray, a stick, anything else. I realize it went down fast, but if you would have fired a shot, bad things would have happened. I would consider having a range of responses from
command voice <--> non-lethal responses <--> lethal responses

Glad everything worked out OK.

I have to agree. The crowded market was my first thought when I read the situation.

[Rotorblade]

OK, I wasn't going to post this real "situation", but I decided to get the comments and opinions of the group. Last weekend I was pushing my year and a half old son around the Daytona flea market in his stroller. Bought some fresh pickles and vegetables and looked at the Elvis and Bruce lee paintings on velvet and enjoyed the walk. As the wife was looking at something, I noticed a guy walking a dog on a leash up in front of us. The dog took one look at my son and charged right for the stroller. The owner was paying no attention until the leash ran out and the dog was pulling his arm. The dog was stopped about 8 feet short of the stroller. I went to red alert. The dog had his lip curled back, no noise though. I'm not sure what kind of dog it was, white and fluffy, medium sized, but not a poodle. I had pulled the stroller back and around me and was reaching my thumb under the edge of my Tshirt to lift it out of the way to prepare to draw when the owner looked up to see what the dog was doing and why it was pulling on his arm so hard I guess. For some reason, he pulled the dog back and rushed off. I had not yet drawn, or even exposed my gun. No one else, including my unarmed wife, seemed to notice anything. I had no time to verbally warn him, or perhaps I haven't trained on my verbal skills enough. I have used my "command voice" in past situations with some success, not this time, though. Task saturation? I imagine I had quite an intense look on my face. I'm sure my posture suggested I was about to draw a gun, unless it could be mistaken for something else. I ran into no further problems, got a good deal on fishing stuff, and passed on the Elvis painting. FWIW, I was carrying a P7M8 H&K, one spare magazine, and a Kel Tec .32. I had a Cold Steel knife in my pocket. I am also a dog owner and bear no particular ill will towards animals, although I treat the tasty ones in a way sure to annoy PETA and the like.

Your thoughts are welcome as always, as are comments and criticism of my actions. Let's all learn a few things from each other.

It was a medium sized "White fluffy dog". It wasn't a pit bull or Doberman. My first reaction would have been to kick it back to the owner.

[CEW58]

I would have planted a high speed boot in the dogs head. I like dogs, but when people take them outside they have a responsibility to keep them under control at all times. Failure to do so will get their dog hurt if it threatens. Period.

[Hotbrass]

I am glad it went down with out the drop of a hammer. By standers flying bullets= no no.

[jfl]

Most "Mace", "pepper spray" etc. have little to no effect on dogs, at least no fast enough ...

[nutz4utwo]

Glad no one was hurt and glad you were paying attention.

I might hove gotten between the dog and stroller or picked the baby up before turning toward your firearm. I frequently walk with a small cat on a leash and picking her up changes most dogs opinions fairly well.

If this dog really did become aggressive and directly threaten your child, then lethal force is a possibility. Keep in mind that it can be very difficult to shoot a moving animal (or shoot a dog in close proximity to your son) I would not recommend it.

[Paymeister]

A kick would have taken the dog off-task, thereby protecting your son.

Risk and severity of a kick: you would have been at high risk of a bite, and the severity might have landed you in the ER for some stitches. The fellow or his homeowner's insurance would have paid for it, probably.

Risk and severity of shooting: most SD calibers overpenetrate medium-sized white fluffy dogs, and in a crowd the risk of hitting someone else would have been extremely high. The severity of such a shooting would be horrendous (killing someone else's kid by accident, losing your freedom, everything you own, and maybe your marriage).

I wasn't there, and am just a guy on the 'net. You and your kid made it home, so all is well. Good for you for dong a post-action analysis.

[oldogy]

You got between the danger and the kid. Mid size fluffy dog does not quite sound lethal. You would not have been justified in pulling a gun. Ya done good.
oldogy

[Barbary]

I have discovered for me that ammonia in a squirt gun/spray bottle works well with dogs. You ride a bicycle long enough you have run-ins with dogs, this became my cease and desist solution for my four legged pursuers. However, my uncle on my father's side had a different solution. He was chased day after day down a country road by a Doberman. One day he had enough, he put on the brakes turned his bike around and chased the Doberman for a quarter mile all the way back to the dog's home, yelling like a madman the whole time. The dog never chased him again. Sorry, got sidetracked, back to my train of thought. It would behoove you to go with a bright colored water gun, less chance of it being seen as a real gun and carry it in a fanny pack.

[Superhouse 15]

Actually, my priority was getting between the dog and the boy. I had no need to draw...Yet. From the standpoint of Capability, Proximity, and Intent, I only had two. The dog was capable of harming a small kid. The dog was showing intent by baring his (her) teeth and pulling at the leash. The dog was not in proximity because of being on a leash and me moving the boy out of the way. He was out of range, so to speak. If the dog had pulled the leash off of the owners hand and/or if I had not moved between it and the boy, there would be a demonstrable risk of death and/or great bodily injury. Injury such as permanant disfigurement or blindness due to the kids face being at mouth height. I was not drawing the gun, but I was ready to. I have practiced moving a stroller and moving the boy while drawing and shooting (for some reason, mom makes me use my range bag in the stroller instead of the boy... Mothers). I would much rather take a bite instead of the boy, but I'm not fighting a dog for long when I'm wearing a pistol. I have good insurance, but only one butt. I also have to protect my son, at least until he's a know it all teenager.

I found a picture of a dog on Google Images that kind of looks like the dog. It's as close as I could find, the dog in question has different ears, maybe not as fluffy, but same breed.

Ammo was 124gr Gold Saber. I'm not a "bonded bullet deep penetration at all costs" kind of believer. I switched to the GS to ensure feed reliability in the fast-cycling P7. The plan was to direct any shots strainght downward. I don't carry OC spray on my own time. I do at work at the FD, specifically for the odd angry dog. MSI OC and CS combined.

Thank you for all the comments and especially the criticism. Next I'll tell you what the deputy that was working security told me.

[Paymeister]

Well... on seeing the dog it ain't quite the lapdog I had in mind. That, coupled with your 'would shoot straight downward' make me think you had things better in hand (and better thought out) than my previous post might have suggested. Still would have been a bad day all around with the stampede and such, but I can better understand your thoughts now.

[jg45]

That looks like a Samoyed. We had three when I was a teenager. The largest was pushing 80 pounds. That father of our largest male was over 120 lbs. They can be big dogs. Typically they are very good with children and quite friendly, but they can get very protective as well, and I will guarantee they have nice and big teeth.