Is a chair cause for lethal force? - Page 2

Is a chair cause for lethal force?

This is a discussion on Is a chair cause for lethal force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Shooting at someone is not less than lethal force, even if you end up missing or hitting them in the leg....

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  1. #16
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    Shooting at someone is not less than lethal force, even if you end up missing or hitting them in the leg.


  2. #17
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    Array Captain Crunch's Avatar
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    This is less than lethal force, and should you end up in court over it......
    You'll get burned...

    Sorry, Sheldon, you still don't get it. You never shoot to wound.

    But I'll tell you what. You shoot the dude in the kneecap, I'll shoot center of mass. Which method stands the best chance of stopping the threat, which is the only objective in a self defense shooting?

    Oh, and BTW, shooting at tennis balls on the range in controlled conditions is not the same as shooting at a kneecap in a stressful, adrenaline filled self defense situation.


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling


    Terry

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    does anyone know how the fight started? ive never heard of a fight in a restaurant.
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    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”
    ― Thomas Paine

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
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    "ive never heard of a fight in a restaurant."

    I guess 'The Times, They are A'Changing.' It seems like there are no really safe places anymore. Total lack of civility in today's society. Just stepping out the front door today carries enough risk to warrant being armed at all times. For that matter just sitting at home reading a book or watching a ball game makes having a firearm within reach a sensible idea.

    bosco

  5. #20
    Member Array chains1240's Avatar
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    In Michigan it was explained to us that we have to be in danger of great bodily harm(including rape I believe) or death to use deadly force. There was no requirement of weapons on the assailant side. As another stated if a large athletic person is getting sideways on you and due to age or a physical disability or other reason you cannot physically defend yourself you may be in danger of great bodily harm or death.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Crunch View Post
    You'll get burned...

    Sorry, Sheldon, you still don't get it. You never shoot to wound.

    But I'll tell you what. You shoot the dude in the kneecap, I'll shoot center of mass. Which method stands the best chance of stopping the threat, which is the only objective in a self defense shooting?

    Oh, and BTW, shooting at tennis balls on the range in controlled conditions is not the same as shooting at a kneecap in a stressful, adrenaline filled self defense situation.
    I beg to differ muscle memory is all you will have when under stress so you will shoot as you train, and there are a lot of BTDT stories out there to verify that. Including one of my own that we will not go into here....

    N shooting at some part of the body other than COM I admit could be lethal should you sever an artery to that body part. But one thing for sure in the eyes of a jury a knee shot is going to be a whole lot less lethal in their eyes than a COM.

    Been on jury duty 5 different times now (2 murder, 1 robbery, 1 assault, 1 fraud---just luckuy I guess) and I know how they think. Shooting to stop is the goal, and a drunk with a chair is a whole lot different than a crack head with a chair, and this is a drunk, which could be on crack I admit but then he would not have likely been there in the first place.

    Point being each situation is unique, each situation must be judged by the individual, handled by that individual within their skill set, and for you that is COM to stop a drunk, that should it go to court would be put under a microscope by the prosecutor.

    For me I have had some extended training and it would not have been the gun at all but let them charge and a side step to put them down on the floor, and then drop my 275 pounds on their back and restrain until the police show up.


    But that was not a real option in the start this was started as a shoot or not and it kind of got skewered from there...

    Still the primary point is avoid these situations in the first place, situational awareness is key, retreat when ever possible, if you feel your life is in danger respond accordingly within your particular skill set and if that is 2 COM then so be it but you will have to live with the consequences....

    Remember drunks may be argumentative but very unquardneated, their motor skills are dulled and are just as likely to trip over their own feet should they try and run, should they swing their momentum will likely take them down depending upon their state of inebration....

    One huge rule here, is never argue or engage in a discussion with a drunk, and if cornered by one bite your tongue and always agree with what ever they say regardless of how inane.... Again avoid the situation!
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul34 View Post
    This is why it's a good idea to sit near a door - to make a hasty exit when this sort of stuff happens!
    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    . . . I suggest good situational awareness and when the first sign of aggression starts don't hang around to see what happens til you become part of the situation
    In Kansas prefectly legal to cc in a bar (unless posted); but I would not carry in a bar. Now the story from the OP sounds more like a resturant that serves booze therefore both of the above quotes make GOOD SENSE!!

  8. #23
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    Personally, I would hate to lose my CCW privileges due to a drunk with a chair in a bar fight. So if getting the heck out of Dodge is an option, I am taking it, unless he is coming after me specifically. If he wants me, then we handle it differently, and seriously. I have pondered how my exposure (legally) is increased if I had/have been drinking, and how that could be played into questioning my ability to determine actual risk after drinking. I think it safer to not drink and carry at the same time. So it looks like less drinking.

    AZ Legislature is voting today about legally carrying in restaurants that serve alcohol, so this may be more pertinent today than previously.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boscobeans View Post
    "ive never heard of a fight in a restaurant."

    I guess 'The Times, They are A'Changing.' It seems like there are no really safe places anymore. Total lack of civility in today's society. Just stepping out the front door today carries enough risk to warrant being armed at all times. For that matter just sitting at home reading a book or watching a ball game makes having a firearm within reach a sensible idea.

    bosco
    i know it boscobeans,and i am always armed. when i go to bed the sig goes on the night stand in the holster.when i wake up i strap it on for all day.
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    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”
    ― Thomas Paine

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormbringerr View Post
    does anyone know how the fight started? ive never heard of a fight in a restaurant.
    Really? I have seen several fights in resturants, but they usually only involve two individuals, not the western all out brawl.

    One in particular involved a waitress at a very popular family owned restaurant here. Apparently the exgirlfriend of the waitress's boyfriend came in and demanded she stop seeing the guy. It got physical (Que Olivia Newton John) and the waitress grabbed a steak knife out of the sink.

    We didn't see the fight, just heard the noise from the kitchen, got the details later.

  11. #26
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    This sorta reminds me of my first time in a bar at the ripe age of 16. It was a lil honky tonk out in the middle of nowhere. A fight broke out which quickly became a brawl like the one described, bottles and pool balls being thrown, pool cues being swung. I was 5'5 and weighed 135 soaking wet then. I watched awestruck for about 30 secs then crawled under a pool table until it was over.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array mi2az's Avatar
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    I know it sucks, but I think in AZ that if someone is coming at you with a chair, it is physical force and not deadly force unless your a female.
    "When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."

    --Thomas Jefferson --

  13. #28
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    While waiting for an exit, someone approaches you and is about to hit you over the head with a chair. What to do?


    Much depends on the exact nature of the chair.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array ErikGr7's Avatar
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    Can't CCW in bars.

    Shout real fast "Can I buy U a drink?) lol if he is
    a real drunk that will stop him in his tracks

    Plan 2 - Use OC spray

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    While waiting for an exit, someone approaches you and is about to hit you over the head with a chair. What to do?


    Much depends on the exact nature of the chair.
    Fake a heart attack and try not to laugh while you are doing it.....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

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