Is a chair cause for lethal force?

Is a chair cause for lethal force?

This is a discussion on Is a chair cause for lethal force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here is an excerpt from a newsletter I got from my local sheriff: Seven Arrested During Bar Fight Outside Beaverton On May 3, Deputies responded ...

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Thread: Is a chair cause for lethal force?

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    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Is a chair cause for lethal force?

    Here is an excerpt from a newsletter I got from my local sheriff:

    Seven Arrested During Bar Fight Outside Beaverton

    On May 3, Deputies responded to a bar fight at Azteca Mexican Restaurant on Beaverton Hillsdale Highway. Security had used pepper spray on the patrons who were fighting, and more than 100 people were attempting to exit the bar. Just like a Wild West movie scene, patrons were throwing beer bottles and using chairs as weapons. Deputies and Beaverton Police were quickly able to break up the fight and control the crowd. Deputies arrested and took five adults to jail, cited two who had been sent to the hospital, and cited a third person for Minor in Possession. The Oregon Liquor Control Commission is investigating the restaurant for serving underage patrons.
    Say you were in that restuarant and you were trying to escape just like everyone else. While waiting for an exit, someone approaches you and is about to hit you over the head with a chair. What to do?
    Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.


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    jfl
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    In Florida it is called "Disparity of force".
    It is not what the other guy is using as a weapon, it is: "Can he inflicts you great bodily harm? ".
    A 250 lbs athlete coming at me, even empty handed, is a threat that I will stop.
    At 145 lbs and 69 years old, I believe in the saying:
    "Don't pick up a fight with an old man.
    If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you !!!"
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

    jfl
    (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)

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    Senior Member Array PointnClick's Avatar
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    Its the European Union summit... Swedish Ikea furniture, meet Sig Sauer from Germany...

    I shoulda been a diplomat...
    "Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"

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    Member Array Hotbrass's Avatar
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    Defend yourself.
    Keep your powder dry

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    This is why it's a good idea to sit near a door - to make a hasty exit when this sort of stuff happens!

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    Member Array fogish's Avatar
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    I am hazy on Oregon law but I believe you can defend yourself with lethal force (is there any other?). I don't think it would be responsible in a bar/restaurant with 100 people trying to exit all at the same time though. Way too many people in the background, I would have to be 100% sure that the rounds would enter only the attacker and not come out the other side. I value my life but I value innocent life as well. I would run away and if that was not an option I would go crazy and attack him. Run at him, gouge eyes, stab, kick at the groin, yell, punch, do all at once or not. Whatever it took to throw him off guard or actually stop him. Of course I am young and strong and foolish still.
    Is this going back more future than we were?

    We don't react, we respond.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    In Texas you wouldn't have a gun on you legally in the first place,so I suggest good situational awareness and when the first sign of aggression starts don't hang around to see what happens til you become part of the situation
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    I would assume bars are off limits for CCW in most states.

    I'm in my 60's and I don't have more than two beers...always my limit, and that goes down to one without food and time on the clock.

    Anyone going to a bar needs to realize that 'alcohol supermen' always seem to suddenly appear, and it's usually NOT to save the day. Unfortunately, they DO seem to think that they can stop bullets, trains, and leap tall buildings though...

    At the first 'sign' of trouble, I'm out of there...although I most likely would never be in a bar in the first place. (Only once this year for a staff get-together after the high school graduation, and the bar was more of a family oriented place.)

    Now I can be armed in a Florida restaurant (keeping out of the bar area) and even be having a beer with a meal...perfectly legal.
    If someone were to start a fight in the bar area that moved out to the restaurant area, my first move (Plan #1) would be to head out of the door...if trapped, attacked, and I fear for my life...Plan #2 comes into play = ...

    Stay armed...always have a plan...stay safe!
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    Well, instead of picking apart whether you should be there with a gun, or being afraid of collateral damage, I would focus on whether I wanted to die or not. If you were to believe your life was in eminent danger, then shoot.
    Regards,
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

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    Member Array fogish's Avatar
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    I guess I should clarify: I don't drink, I don't go in bars so it is really really hypothetical for me. If there weren't 20 people directly behind the guy I would shoot.
    Also since I was born and raised in Utah and recently moved away I am used to leaner gun laws: if you can drive legally you can carry legally. Less than .08 BAL and you are good to go. If the state thinks you are safe enough to drive a deadly weapon you are safe enough to carry one.
    In WA and OR you can carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol but not in a bar or bar area of a restaurant - 21 or older only.
    Is this going back more future than we were?

    We don't react, we respond.

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    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Same here no bars for me, and it is always ice tea when I am out, and in Mi the 51% rule applies so Restaurant that serves is OK but not in a bar.....
    All else aside, I'm 6'4" and at 58 can out work, out lift, and since loosing 50 pounds can out run most 30 year olds, and in the best physical condition in my life, yeah I had to retire to get that way....
    But a steel chair can be a deadly weapon in the hands of those determined, so first evade, warn, then cap their knee....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

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    But a steel chair can be a deadly weapon in the hands of those determined, so first evade, warn, then cap their knee....
    No, most emphatically, NO!

    You NEVER shoot to wound. If you are justified in employing deadly force, then you shoot to stop the threat by the quickest means possible by aiming at your assailant's center of mass. How many times do we have to say this?

    I certainly hope you were being facetious, but in case you were serious, are you that proficient that you can hit a tiny target like a knee cap, under stress?


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

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    Terry

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    Member Array AFVet1982's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointnClick View Post
    Its the European Union summit... Swedish Ikea furniture, meet Sig Sauer from Germany...
    That is SO spot-on!!! Outstanding!!!
    / / / / pkv / / / /
    "There are three kinds of people in the world: those who learn from the mistakes of others, those who learn from their own mistakes, and those who feel compelled to urinate on the electric fence." -- Unknown

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    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Crunch View Post
    No, most emphatically, NO!

    You NEVER shoot to wound. If you are justified in employing deadly force, then you shoot to stop the threat by the quickest means possible by aiming at your assailant's center of mass. How many times do we have to say this?

    I certainly hope you were being facetious, but in case you were serious, are you that proficient that you can hit a tiny target like a knee cap, under stress?
    Absolutely!! SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT! CONTINUE TO SHOOT TILL THE THREAT STOPS!

    OR DON'T SHOOT!!
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  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Crunch View Post
    No, most emphatically, NO!

    You NEVER shoot to wound. If you are justified in employing deadly force, then you shoot to stop the threat by the quickest means possible by aiming at your assailant's center of mass. How many times do we have to say this?

    I certainly hope you were being facetious, but in case you were serious, are you that proficient that you can hit a tiny target like a knee cap, under stress?
    Yes it was part in jest but on a serious note if you cannot hit something the size of a knee at 20' aiming then you need more target practice.

    No1 fun drill is to draw and hit a tennis ball at 20' from the hip, then hit it again on the rebound, repeat until the mag is MT no aiming allowed...

    Mozambique drill is similar, while walking draw to the side from the hip N put 2 center mass at 25-30' then aim and plant one between the eyes, do this while walking at different angles to the target. If you are not able to do this 99% then you are in serious need of practice, remember stress fire is muscle memory dependent!!!

    So if you can do this a knee shot should be no problem.... Advantages, you are shooting in a downward direction, any miss will be into the floor and not a bystander. A shot to the knee will stop the most determined adversary they will stop, because they will no longer be able to stand. This is less than lethal force, and should you end up in court over it......
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

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