4 on 1 gunfight?

This is a discussion on 4 on 1 gunfight? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by OffDutyCCWNY Mr. Bunny Rabbit is crazy. Just because you possess a CCW permit and hangun does not make you a LEO. Please ...

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Thread: 4 on 1 gunfight?

  1. #16
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    Array shooterX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OffDutyCCWNY View Post
    Mr. Bunny Rabbit is crazy. Just because you possess a CCW permit and hangun does not make you a LEO. Please do not try to stop crime that you incounter in the street that is not directed to you or your loved ones. Get descriptions, locations, number of perps and run for cover(leave scene). Then call the local LEO agency. DO NOT take the Law into you own hands by playing Rambo and taking on a gang assult.
    I think this is sound advice.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Eagle,

    There is a really good training method called the 'Dozier Drill' that covers as much.

    Here is a link toward the history of the drill and why it is referred to as such;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_...e_Dozier_Drill

    As noted a handy skill set to develop and have amongst ones bag of tools.

    - James Dozier
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    You see 5 guys, kicking and beating the living snot out of one guy, who is now on the ground, fetal position, possibly unresponsive. What do you do?
    If the guy on the ground was a known, close assosciate or family member of mine, the interaction would start with 1-2 of the beaters being dead, more if I was fast & they were slow- no words exchanged.

    If I don't know the down guy, and assuming I don't see anything giving me dissuading information, I'd drive on & call the cops. Most other people aren't worth my health & well-being.

    Try and get some ride-alongs with or for your husband with the local EMS and/or PD. The realization that 99.9% of the people experiencing these situations were actively, often happily, engaged in starting them comes quickly.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    Leaving aside the very real possibility of getting yourself shot and maybe killed...

    If you draw your weapon and fire, even in a righteous shoot, you're looking at an average of $10,000 in legal bills before it is all over. Can you do that for someone you don't know, in a situation you are unfamiliar with? I can't. I'll call 911 and wait for backup.

    If it is a family member, the answer is different, mainly because I won't be yelling at them to stop, I'll draw and start firing because 5 on 1 with a defenseless victim meets the requirements.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  6. #20
    Member Array gogriz91's Avatar
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    For all you know it's a gang initiation ritual and the intent is to beat the daylights out of the individual but not to kill him. Move out of the immediate vicinity to a point where if one or all of these folks starts heading my direction I can get out of there or respond by drawing. Call 911 and impress upon the operator the severity of the beating.

    If the bunny says you're a wimp and have a responsibility to respond by drawing and shooting remind him you are not an LEO and are under no obligation whatsoever, that there was nothing happening that was worth your life which is the scenario you put yourself into by going into a gunfight outnumbered 4 to 1.
    Desperate people do desperate things in desperate situations.

    Heavily medicated for your protection.

    Kimber Tactical Custom II, SIS Pro

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    We're in the car yesterday, and Mr. Bunny --bless his heart-- actually wanted to talk firearms! Seems maybe the 1/2 of the CCH class he took actually stuck with him! :)

    Anyhow, he said "I have a scenario for you, I was thinking about this, what would you do?" And here it is:

    You're in a bad area of town. He chose Trenton, NJ for this scenario, but pick your own. You see 5 guys, kicking and beating the living snot out of one guy, who is now on the ground, fetal position, possibly unresponsive. What do you do?

    At this point, Mr. Bunny suggested that in this scenario, he would want to help the guy being beaten, so he would most likely pull his gun, which leads to the 2nd part of his hypothetical situation...

    You pull your gun and yell to the guys to stop. And then you see that 4 of the 5 bad guys pull out THEIR guns, what do you do next?






    My answers went like this?:
    1) I would not be anywhere near Trenton. Ever. Or any other "bad part of town," because I have zero need to go to one. Period. +1
    2) I don't know if I would have pulled a gun on this gang of 5 to begin with, because you don't know if they're armed or not, and sometimes it's better to call police, be a good witness, and not stupidly/unnecessarily put yourself in harm's way. +1 again
    3) If I drew on the crowd and they drew back, I'm not sure what would happen then. Most likely shoot and run for cover, but I honestly don't know, I've never thought about something like that. I'm a firm believer of not putting myself in a no win situation if avoidable. 5 against 1 is a no win situation, armed or not. Once they draw a weapon your options are gone. Shoot first, seek cover and hope your a better shot than they are. The odds are in their favor.

    At which point, I told Mr. Bunny I would post it up here and see what the experts think :)
    When you get an answer from the experts please post it, I'm sure the rest of us would like to read it as well!

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ron8903's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TucAzRider View Post
    But wait,. If this person is getting the living crap beat out of them,.. It is a moral responsiblity to become involved if you happen to come upon them?? I couldn't live with myself knowing I could have saved a life and I walked away.. Calling the cops is good, and a must, but the one getting the crap beat out of them may not have that long before they become a corpse.. We're not trying to be LEO's, but we are to defend ourselves, loved ones, and sheep too?????
    Would you intervene if you didn't have a gun?
    "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
    - Sir Winston Churchill

  9. #23
    Member Array McDougal's Avatar
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    Trenton, NJ, you see 5 guys, kicking and beating the living snot out of one guy
    And when you call the police, you're told there are already 5 off-duty officers on the scene, apprehending a witness to last night's beating of a witness by police.

    (Just kidding, I love NJ!)

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    There was actually a very similar case involving four "off duty" LEO's beating one individual who had just cut them off in traffic.

    I think the permit holder stayed behind his car for cover and called 911. The officers got arrested and suspended. I think they are still awaiting trial. (Forgive me, but I have forgotten the name of the city.)

    As for me, I would remain behind some kind of cover; call 911 and let the attackers know I was on the phone with the police. This is what worked in the above scenario and is probably the best course of action.


    BTW;
    I would intervene; and have intervened in similar situations even when I was unarmed.
    Last edited by Miggy; June 11th, 2009 at 07:51 PM. Reason: editing unnecessary stuff

  11. #25
    Member Array oldogy's Avatar
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    Strongly suggest that Mr Bunny go back and take the rest of his CCC or HCC, whatever they call it where you live. You know, the part that tells you some of what you can and can not do legally.
    Five on one.......That is animal pack mentality and the pack could very easily move its attention to you.
    Quite a few scenarios that could be happening here, as mentioned.
    Me, I would dial 911, be a good witness. I am not a LEO and do not intend to play one, ever.
    oldogy
    Government is out of control
    "If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying -- " Sen Orrin G. Hatch

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron8903 View Post
    Would you intervene if you didn't have a gun?
    Well in my car/truck I always carry something I can use for a weapon,. Large maglite, tire iron's,.. So ya,. I would have to intervane,. Sadly calling 911 and getting involved to save a life,,. I feel that is just how I'm wired,. I'd have nightmare's I'm sure about it for life if that person was to die and I didn't do anything about it.. I feel that is just humanity???? Just my 2cents,. I'm not in the situation, so for sure I'm sure none of us can say for sure.. Maybe we'd all turn yellow and run???? Wett-in our pants as we ran???? (I would hope not)

  13. #27
    Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
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    Why does everyone assume that the guy on the ground is a good guy and the guys beating him are bad guys? Why do we always want to come to the aid of the underdog? Sure, 5 on 1 sounds pretty straight forward. Wolves attack in packs. But wasn't it just about a week ago that a bunch of people beat the snot out of a suspected child rapist? I'm not saying that was right, but how do you differentiate the good guys from the bad guys there? What would happen to you if you did intervene?

    Headlines read "Child Rape Victim Now Fatherless as Good Samaritan Comes to Aid of Her Abuser"

    There are now winners in that headline. I have to applaud some you for your willingness to put yourself at risk to help strangers. I know your heart is in the right place. And this world needs more people that are willing to help their fellow man. But I don't want to risk my life for someone simply because he is the underdog. Dial 911 and be a good witness.

  14. #28
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    He might be getting beat for a good reason. He could have just molested a kid and got caught, we don't know why they are beating him. I would call 911 and take my family out of harms way.

  15. #29
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    It's funny how the same people who demean us by accusing us of being "vigilantes" or having "John Wayne" fantasies, often think that a citizen with a gun should jump into situations just because we are armed.

    I have the legal and moral right to defend myself, to defend my family, or, "a person KNOWN to me to be innocent".
    That's a short list.

    A stranger getting a beat down does not qualify.
    For all I can tell, it's all a hoax to sucker me into a conflict with the whole gang.

    As an example, in one CCW class, the instructor read off a scenario with a "damsel in distress" who flagged down a driver.
    She shot him dead with a .357 and took his car.

    I have one friend who has intervened on behalf of 4-5 women being hit by a man. EACH WOMAN attacked him. He minds his own business now.

    I've read of too many scenarios which looked OBVIOUSLY one way, but were actually something else entirely.

    It is not worth the risk to my life, limb, assets, or freedom to intervene in violent conflicts I did not see from the beginning.

    If you want to be a hero and start shooting people to save the guy on the ground, have at it. Don't expect too many contributions to your legal defense or medical fund.

  16. #30
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    If it is someone I know is innocent, I would probably intervene, shooting as many as I could before the others could react. I would then move to cover and engage the rest. (This after calling 911, if I had time.)

    If it is not someone I know is innocent, are you kidding? I would certainly not shoot up a situation I know little to nothing about. Could be that if I knew all the details, I would join in the beating!

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