4 on 1 gunfight?
This is a discussion on 4 on 1 gunfight? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; We're in the car yesterday, and Mr. Bunny --bless his heart-- actually wanted to talk firearms! Seems maybe the 1/2 of the CCH class he ...
June 11th, 2009 12:26 PM
4 on 1 gunfight?
We're in the car yesterday, and Mr. Bunny --bless his heart-- actually wanted to talk firearms! Seems maybe the 1/2 of the CCH class he took actually stuck with him! :)
Anyhow, he said "I have a scenario for you, I was thinking about this, what would you do?" And here it is:
You're in a bad area of town. He chose Trenton, NJ for this scenario, but pick your own. You see 5 guys, kicking and beating the living snot out of one guy, who is now on the ground, fetal position, possibly unresponsive. What do you do?
At this point, Mr. Bunny suggested that in this scenario, he would want to help the guy being beaten, so he would most likely pull his gun, which leads to the 2nd part of his hypothetical situation...
You pull your gun and yell to the guys to stop. And then you see that 4 of the 5 bad guys pull out THEIR guns, what do you do next?
My answers went like this?: 1) I would not be anywhere near Trenton. Ever. Or any other "bad part of town," because I have zero need to go to one. Period. 2) I don't know if I would have pulled a gun on this gang of 5 to begin with, because you don't know if they're armed or not, and sometimes it's better to call police, be a good witness, and not stupidly/unnecessarily put yourself in harm's way. 3) If I drew on the crowd and they drew back, I'm not sure what would happen then. Most likely shoot and run for cover, but I honestly don't know, I've never thought about something like that.
At which point, I told Mr. Bunny I would post it up here and see what the experts think :)
Don't frisk me, I am the weapon.
Sig Sauer P239 DAK (9mm)
NRA Member & Pistol Instructor
June 11th, 2009 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Bunny
If I drew on five and they drew back on me I would make sure all 13 rounds in my G23 hit their mark. I would then make sure the next 13 from my spare mag ended the threat permenently. On the other hand I would just sit in my car, call the police and keep my side arm at ready incase the became interrested in me.
June 11th, 2009 12:36 PM
1. Same here, avoid bad parts of town.
2. Technically the best answer, however if the victim is a family member of mine would alter my involvement.
3. That happens when you have responded wrong on #2
Gain a 2A vote, take a fence-sitter shooting.
June 11th, 2009 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis
Once you've drawn your weapon you can't just yell takes backsies and they forget your there.
There's nothing wrong with shooting so long as the right people get shot. -- Dirty Harry Calahan
June 11th, 2009 01:21 PM
Mr. Bunny Rabbit is crazy. Just because you possess a CCW permit and hangun does not make you a LEO. Please do not try to stop crime that you incounter in the street that is not directed to you or your loved ones. Get descriptions, locations, number of perps and run for cover(leave scene). Then call the local LEO agency. DO NOT take the Law into you own hands by playing Rambo and taking on a gang assult.
June 11th, 2009 01:31 PM
But wait,. If this person is getting the living crap beat out of them,.. It is a moral responsiblity to become involved if you happen to come upon them?? I couldn't live with myself knowing I could have saved a life and I walked away.. Calling the cops is good, and a must, but the one getting the crap beat out of them may not have that long before they become a corpse.. We're not trying to be LEO's, but we are to defend ourselves, loved ones, and sheep too?????
June 11th, 2009 01:42 PM
Once you make the very serious not a joke decision to draw _and_ draw down on to any person never mind a group of persons...well then you had better be be prepping that trigger if not aligning that front sight.
Under said scenario which truthfully can and literally exactly as detailed with multiple assailants has a number of times occurred in so called nice/good/safe areas (criminal acting people are universal...not regional), if the BGs turned around and drew their own firearm(s) there would be _no time_ to be thinking okay what next. Reason being because BG rounds incoming would be barely missing you if not taking strikes on to you.
There is a huge functional difference between BGs and GGs.
* GGs generally have compassion and concern for legality as well as a general wish to resolve conflict without having to take a life. As well they often time will make bluffs be it verbal or physical. They don't really want to see anyone get hurt be it them or anyone else, including the BG.
Same applies to police again speaking in general.
* BGs on the other hand they generally and largely operate by a completely different set of rules and mores. Primary amongst them being survive or die. That is how they come wired and/or are programmed by life experiences.
Generally they do not and will not hesitate. For them it's always exploit so as to get within the preys OODA loop. They have just two steps in their thought process; 1) Draw and 2) FIRE!
If by chance you happen to get the jump on them same as a hyena or wild dog they will assess the situation and either flee or assess you as a being meat, and by that attempt to get under your skin...literally.
By the time the BGs turned around if armed with firearms there would be nothing but a wall of bullets for the GG to view and debate on what to do next.
Do not get caught out as such without at the very least stealthy concealment if not optimally hard cover.
This applies at all ranges be it from across the street or at 2 paces.
I'd first and foremost contact 911 and report it and be _doubly sure_ to impress upon the operator that there is an attempted murder in progress and that the victim is in mortal danger. Code 3.
After that my first thought would most likely be where can I position myself optimally for both distance and hard cover as well as points of escape...if not a location that can I use to confuse them as to my exact location such as speaking toward them from darkness/shadow.
I'd not want to see a citizen be hurt never mind killed, but I'm not going to risk getting myself the same treatment or killed in that persons stead. Which also has and does occur.
If I make the decision to draw at all muchless draw down on some person(s) then well the situation in the immediate right now this second would be quite serious.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
June 11th, 2009 01:48 PM
So, I try to avoid situations like this. Despite that, I have witnessed a few fights and each time, I was able to stay back 50 yards call 911 and wait for LEOs. It is actually pretty hard to beat someone to death. Especially with only your fists and boots (possible, but difficult)
If it had any look of gang on gang violence I would get outta there ASAP and call 911. I am not getting in the middle of that.
If I CLEARLY saw an attacker/victim relationship and felt the victim's life in immediate danger I might get involved.
If someone draws a firearm on me, I will fight back and evade until they are no longer a threat or I am in a safe place. What else can you do?
June 11th, 2009 01:48 PM
If you draw your gun, you better darn be ready to use it.
I don't think I would get involved in this scenario since I know not anything about this situation. You do not know who the guy is, who the group is, etc. I would just leave and call the police.
OTOH, if that were a loved one being beaten up on, I would probably use my vehicle to disperse the group and get him/her in the vehicle and drive away.
Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.
June 11th, 2009 01:56 PM
I could not stand by and watch 5 guys beat someone...Right or wrong I would be forced to intervene. If they forced me to take it past verbal commands to stop and step back then its on them and I would do what was necassary at that time to ensure the my safety and the help whats left of ol' dude on the ground...
To err is human.
To forgive is divine.
Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.
"It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)
June 11th, 2009 01:58 PM
I'm no expert, and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but here's my $0.02.
Originally Posted by Bunny
First, there is no "bad" or good part of town. In short, there is no "safe" place. Learn that and internalize it and it will make life easier for all concerned. There are some places "safer" than others though.
As for your scenario, get thee to cover first and foremost and summon the local constabulary that is On Duty. The reason I say "on duty" is because my agency has a very clear off duty policy that states, "Any actions taken off duty will not be considered within the scope of employment."
If getting to cover means that you are leaving the scene as you are talking to 911, so be it. Your responsibility is to yourself and family. Let that responsibility guide your actions.
As far as five on one, or four on one, MOVE! Shooting back is optional. Heck, even if it's one on one you should be moving.
June 11th, 2009 02:04 PM
June 11th, 2009 02:16 PM
If I have to intervene?
Weeeellll then let me see. How's this: I get out of the car, walk calmly over to the group and ask who is in charge, I may some work that pays quite handsomely for them. When the leader announces himself, I quickly draw my gun and shoot him between the eyes.
Then everyone else each gets 1 round as I run for cover........
Gee that sounds like a movie....
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry
June 11th, 2009 02:27 PM
Hummmm, I find myself in disagreement here. If a person is being seriously beaten & could result in death (as OP says... unconscious, etc. ) by 4 thugs ... uh, people.... I would NOT sit by and watch.
It's too general to get too specific in a response..... assessment of the situation would be critical as to what actions and course of action I might take. It could be from calling 911 to stopping the threat in numerous different ways. Not all solutions involve pulling a gun, where they would then perceive you as a threat and prompt them to draw, but.... if they did then I would protect myself.
The guy who draws first & fastest is the one I would take into account first, and then proceed from there as to who presents the greatest risk / threat while getting cover if I hadn't already. If I confronted them at all, I would approach with "cover" in mind right up front.
I practice shooting simulataneous targets ........ I think people should practice it.... this scenario is why it's good to practice it.
June 11th, 2009 02:30 PM
I would not intervene except to call the cops. If the BGs were any good with their guns there is no chance you could survive 1 against 5. That is a pipe dream.
It is not worth the risk to keep 5 hoods from beating another hood.
If it was an old person, woman, cop or child that puts a different slant on it, and I would intervene, but not a normal age male adult without more information. It probably would be a case of one gang member being beat by 5 other gang members.
I also would stay away from the bad parts of town if I could.
I am basically with retsupt99 on this one.
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