If or when to shoot question...

This is a discussion on If or when to shoot question... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My friends and I go to a Chinese food restaurant in not the worst part of town, but also not the best. But every time ...

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Thread: If or when to shoot question...

  1. #1
    Member Array blinkstafoo1's Avatar
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    If or when to shoot question...

    My friends and I go to a Chinese food restaurant in not the worst part of town, but also not the best. But every time we go we are approached by a different guy asking either for a couple of bucks or food. Now none of them have come close to violent or aggressive, but it got me thinking.

    If the man walks up to us asking for money or food and when he get within 21 feet and pulls a knife and make a movement at either me or a friend, can I immediately draw and fire at the man, or do I need to try to run and escape. Mind you this would be in the middle of the street.

    I know if I was faced with this situation tomorrow I would draw and fire, but I just wanted some other opinions.
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  3. #2
    Member Array Blakestr's Avatar
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    Every situation is different and we can play Monday Night Sheriff all we want (which we why you have forums)

    Pull out your cellphone in one hand, gun in the other, call 911 (if you have time) if not pull out your weapon if you feel threatened. Be mindful of your backstop too, if you can. Make sure you have your hand on your weapon early, (or at least can access it)

    Remember your brain is your biggest weapon but don't forget your voice can startle people who aren't expected it...it basically tells a predator that you ain't prey.

    "BACK AWAY NOW!!! I WILL DEFEND MYSELF"

    Most likely he'll tuck tail and run but REGARDLESS of what he does, call 911 and tell them a man threatened you with a knife you pulled your weapon in self-defense and give them a description and where he was last headed to?

    Others will weigh in here.

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    Member Array DiggerNMt's Avatar
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    You might want to talk to an lawyer in this matter, It is best to know your right to defend yourself. Some places have the law that first you must flee, and if you cannot flee then deadly force may be used. Know your rights that is all it comes down to, or you might be in the headlines for murder... The first question you have to ask is 1. Were you in fear for your life. 2. Did the person have a weapon.3. Do not take your friends self defense into your hands. If you do you might be cleared by a jury, for preserving life.

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    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    I am not a lawyer so take this with a grain of salt.

    Legally :
    He is presenting a threat that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. In some states you must make an effort to avoid / escape the situation. In others you can stand your ground. While you will find very reliable information on DC, I don't recommend you bet your freedom on it. Check your own state laws.
    Tactically:
    In some cases, you will be better off initially defending yourself hand to hand instead of drawing your weapon. If the attacker is close enough, you might have to block thier attack, move away from the BG and draw as your backing up.
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

    Stupidity should be painful.

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    I'm not picking on you but you really need to know your local and state laws... not what somebody on a CCW forum says or thinks they are either. Perhaps someone here from your state can direct you to where you can find them?
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    hand to hand with a knife in his hand. I think not. [WA]pull a knife and I will be in fear of my life. Only draw to shoot, I draw.[/WA]
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
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    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbrenke View Post
    hand to hand with a knife in his hand. I think not. [WA]pull a knife and I will be in fear of my life. Only draw to shoot, I draw.[/WA]
    I would also be in fear for my life. He has already made the choice to harm you. You have to react to his attack that is already in progress. You have to see the knife, your brain has to recognize it as a threat and then you have to react by drawing your weapon. If he is close enough, you very well may not have enough time to draw your weapon and stop the attack without getting stabbed. It's just something you may want to try with a training knife and gun.
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

    Stupidity should be painful.

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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    My $0.02

    You are best to seek legal advice from a lawyer licensed to practice in your state, and preferably in your county or town.

    With that out of the way I will add:

    I am more scared of a knife than I am a gun. In a gunfight you may get shot. In a knifefight you will get cut.

    I would be looking to get off the X and to put some barriers between you and knife boy or girl. In short, MOVE! Do not exclude women in your scenarios as the worst night of my life was when I was attacked by a 70 something year old lady with an 8" Kitchen Knife.

    How close someone can be and still be a deadly threat with a knife is a lot farther than most people think. It only takes on average, 1.5 seconds to close a 7 Yard gap. That average was calculated using 21 - 85 year old people in various physical condition, with various infirmities. I have personally seen an 85 y/o close that gap in under 2 seconds, IIRC.

    If you have never witnessed or expirienced a knife attack you are in for a real treat. I say that with all sarcasm intended. Knifes are a contact weapon, so the attacker will be on top of you. The gun is a remote control device, best employed with some distance to allow you to align your sights and bring your arms up to full extention.

    I will not tell you if something is legal in most cases, unless it is a flagrant violation that even a first year law student could recognize, and win at trial with. I will however urge you to get training on when you can and can't shoot as "there are no winners in a gunfight," as Massad Ayoob says, "only survivors."

    If you can do something to avoid being forced to pull the trigger you will be better off. The only reason one should pull a trigger, speaking from a self defensive stand-point here, is because the alternative is worse. The worse alternative is death, or grave bodily injury to you or a third party if you so choose to defend a third party.

    I myself have made the decision that when I am off duty I have no obligation to my fellow human beings to defend them. I will defend myself, family and identified LEO's and that's pretty much it. The rest of you are on your own. I have non-LEO friends and I have told them to their face that I will not intervene on their behalf off duty. This subject seems to come up when we, the spouse and I, go out to dinner with a non-LEO couple.

    I didn't mean to derail or hi-jack your thread. I'm just giving you some food for thought. Each legal jurisdiction is different, and what flies in one county may be an indictment in another, so proceed at your own risk.

    Biker

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    In texas if somebody asks for money then pulls a knife and demands it,It becomes an armed robbery and under Texas Law you have the right to defend yourself from being robbed of property with no duty to retreat,In other words Homeboy brought a knife to a gun fight
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    In texas if somebody asks for money then pulls a knife and demands it,It becomes an armed robbery and under Texas Law you have the right to defend yourself from being robbed of property with no duty to retreat,In other words Homeboy brought a knife to a gun fight
    +1.

    Texas does not require you to retreat. Even if they did the person is in immediate striking distance to you. There is no time to retreat, there is only time to react, that reaction should be to draw your weapon and stop the threat. No cell phone, no warning, just draw and neutralize the threat.

    Know the laws where you will be traveling to, what your response is in TX may be totally different than what is allowed in another state.

  12. #11
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    Avoid the situation at all costs...as if you had no defensive weapon. walk away, call 911, give a verbal warning, look VERY unfriendly. If 'said' dirtbag follows you, advances, verbally continues to threaten you, then "plan B". The last thing you want to have to do is to shoot someone, unless you want to take a ride in the "Criminal Injustice System". Even if found not guilty, you won't enjoy the attention...and it could cost a few bucks. Walking away is far easier.OMOYMV

    Stay armed...know your limits...stay safe!
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  13. #12
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blinkstafoo1 View Post
    If the man walks up to us asking for money or food and when he get within 21 feet ...
    Every person who's panhandling is within 21 feet, so far as I've seen.

    ... and pulls a knife and make a movement at either me or a friend, can I immediately draw and fire at the man, or do I need to try to run and escape.
    That's a violent attack in progress against you with a lethal weapon. Your lives are at grave risk of being lost. If it's actually violent and coming at you, it's entirely likely you've got little opportunity to "just walk away." Great, if you can. Less expensive that way. But then, we're speaking of a violent lethal attack. If that's the case, then it's instantaneous and you've got one primary decision to make: live or die. Under the circumstances where you absolutely believe your life is at risk and there are no other options, you're certainly justified in terminating the attack as effectively as you're able.

    Review your state laws, but I think you'll find this sort of situation is clear.
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    It's been a while, but I believe I recall the instructor: "just because you can, doesn't mean you should".
    Regards,
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    ~ Stephen King

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Oh, wait, TEXAS.

    That means you can legally shoot the guy, and the next 2 or 3 people in or out of the door.

    Just kidding.

    Guy with knife at that distance, create distance, get gun in hand.
    Movement toward you, 2 COM, repeat as necessary 'til the threat has been stopped.

    Call 911. Clean underdrawers. And pray.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
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  16. #15
    MJK
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    If he asks for money and presents a weapon he has signaled intent to do you grave bodily harm. He has the capability, the threat is immediate and he is in close proximity. You won't have time to think about it - your life hangs in the balance.

    If you question this then try the Tueller drill. It will be a learning experience.

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