how far is too far?

how far is too far?

This is a discussion on how far is too far? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm not sure if this has already been posted, I tried to search, but didn't really find anything. Last night, I was watching Get Rich ...

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Thread: how far is too far?

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    how far is too far?

    I'm not sure if this has already been posted, I tried to search, but didn't really find anything.

    Last night, I was watching Get Rich or Die Tryin (50 Cent's movie (I know, I know...cinematic genius)) anyways, something crossed my mind. At the end of the movie, the Big Bad is trying to attack 50's character and one of the guys present shot him (the big bad) and he went down. Now, BB was still alive but was severly incapicitated. The guy then proceeds to shoot him two more times until he is dead.

    Now, if a BG were to invade my home and I shoot him once and knock him down, what if I shot again until he died? I know we all preach "shoot until the threat is gone", but where is that line? If the guy is alive, but bleeding out, is he still a threat? What, IYO, would be the legal ramifications of putting a couple more in to him after that initial shot? Just so we're clear, I'm talking when he's on the ground, bleeding out and not still charging, but still in your home and possibly still verbally threatening you.
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  2. #2
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    You have to shoot until the threat ceases.

    Now that we got that out of the way, verbal threats arent really a threat are they? If he still has access to a weapon, then by all means end it.

    If not, it is going to be very hard to justify to the police or a jury why you finished him off while he was no longer a threat.

    With that being said, any perp that invades your home is worth shooting several times. Do not count on one shot doing the trick.

    Shooting someone on the ground is fairly easy to determine due to bullet angle of entry. One must be very careful of what happens to avoid potential legal complications.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array ErikGr7's Avatar
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    Others on here know more on the law than I.

    IMO if the BG is down and incapacitated then you
    successfully stopped the crime. If you were to then
    shoot him a few more times I think it would be murder.

    Remember the Pharmicist in Oklahoma, that shot a
    would be robber. He went down.. He fired a few more
    times and got murder one.
    Last edited by ErikGr7; July 1st, 2009 at 11:32 AM. Reason: grammer

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    Member Array jtyler05si's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    You have to shoot until the threat ceases.

    Now that we got that out of the way, verbal threats arent really a threat are they? If he still has access to a weapon, then by all means end it.

    If not, it is going to be very hard to justify to the police or a jury why you finished him off while he was no longer a threat.

    With that being said, any perp that invades your home is worth shooting several times. Do not count on one shot doing the trick.

    Shooting someone on the ground is fairly easy to determine due to bullet angle of entry. One must be very careful of what happens to avoid potential legal complications.
    Exactly. Unless he is still reaching for a weapon I would not shoot. Here is an addition to the question. What if BG got shot in the stomach and leg (I know..bad shot) and began to crawl out of the house. No weapon or threat, just trying to escape. Do you try to stop him (not by shooting him)? Or let him go, get in his car and drive off? I suppose if he was moving slow enough i could get some pictures of him....

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtyler05si View Post
    Exactly. Unless he is still reaching for a weapon I would not shoot. Here is an addition to the question. What if BG got shot in the stomach and leg (I know..bad shot) and began to crawl out of the house. No weapon or threat, just trying to escape. Do you try to stop him (not by shooting him)? Or let him go, get in his car and drive off? I suppose if he was moving slow enough i could get some pictures of him....
    I'd say, if the police were on their way, I'd try to stop him. I'm not sure how legal it would be though to block his escape...
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  6. #6
    Member Array jtyler05si's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcon View Post
    I'd say, if the police were on their way, I'd try to stop him. I'm not sure how legal it would be though to block his escape...
    Ya thats what I was wondering.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
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    You are shooting to stop a threat. If the threat stops, you don't need to shoot any more. If you shoot him and paralyze him from the waste down and he still has a gun, he is still a threat. Shooting him again might still be justified. If he had a knife, the threat level is much lower. (It's not gone because he might be able to throw the knife.) You simply have to re-assess the threat level.

    I'm not sure how far I would go to stop a BG that's trying to crawl away. There are a lot of variables to consider. Is he trying to escape or is he trying to reach a second gun in his car? On the other hand I would rather a BG bleed out on my lawn than on my carpet. But at this point clean-up should be the least of your concerns.

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirling XD View Post
    But at this point clean-up should be the least of your concerns.
    Agreed, but I can't say I haven't thought about living in a house with a bloodstained carpet or floor for a little bit...
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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    On the other hand.......

    Remember the Pharmicist in Oklahoma, that shot a
    would be robber. He went down.. He fired a few more
    times and got murder one.
    There was an incident in Albuquerque, NM, Where a bad guy went onto another persons property armed with a large knife and wearing a bullet resistant vest. When he encountered his victim, said victim was armed with an AR-15 and promptly shot his attacker, who went down in spite of the vest. The victim then shot him several more times. Victim was arrested but released the next day when the DA determined it was self defense. I think a big part of what happens depends on locale. What is legal in Tuscon will get you jail time in NYC.
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; July 1st, 2009 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tags.
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  10. #10
    Member Array Joel's Avatar
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    OK, this has been a discussion point between me and my wife for many years (non-firearm related)

    In the movies (you know, make believe) the bad guy is either always armed or has the upper hand / ambush on the victim / hero.

    The victim, after securing the situation and, in control of the firearm, ALWAYS seems to talk too much. (I know, it's a movie with dialogue and all) or the victim just incapacitates the BG... and I usually yell at the TV (yes, I'm nuts) that you need to "finish him off"!!

    What's the point of injuring the BG and then sweeping the house for more BG's, when you know (as you're watching the TV show) that the original BG isn't dead and will come back? LOL

    You know they always do. Victim returns to the room, and the spot where the BG was laying is now empty.....


    Not firearm related, but still.... why not finish them off while you have the chance? You already made the conscience decision to pull the trigger once...

  11. #11
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    Don't shoot once and wait to see what happens...shoot them to the ground. If the BG is crawling, it could be to another weapon, I'm not taking chances, nor do I want to have to look over my shoulder for the rest of my life. Anyone worth shooting once is worth emptying the weapon into.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    It all depends on what he is doing once he is down and bleeding as you described. If he still has a weapon in his hand and is mouthing, or still trying to theaten you, then you keep pulling the trigger until the threat stops.

    If when he went down the weapon was dropped and slid across the floor well out of reach and he is just laying there moaning in pain trying to keep the blood in, then I would say you keep him covered and make sure that he stays put until the medics/leo or whomever else comes to take him away.

    If they are trying to crawl out the door and get away it is going to depend on the same circumstances. If they have a weapon still, I would probably keep shooting, if they clearly are just trying to leave the scene without any weapon or anything that would be threatening, then I would let them leave the house, but not the property. They certainly would not be getting into their car and driving away.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcon View Post
    I'd say, if the police were on their way, I'd try to stop him. I'm not sure how legal it would be though to block his escape...
    You would not be 'blocking' his escape.
    Once the threat is stopped, ANY movement after being directed to stay motionless would be construed as a continued threat (especially in the home)...that should be dealt with quickly and violently to effectively stop any 'continued' threat.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Barbary's Avatar
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    I would have to say whether or not to shoot the BG again depends alot on the situation. Still holding a gun or going for another gun(possibly trying to disarm you) the threat is still in play. Lying on the floor and bleeding, not moving in a way to acquire a weapon which in spite of his injuries could kill you(gun), don't shoot, call 911. A Coup de grace shot will get you jail time. If he wants to run out, let him. The threat would be leaving your house. Call 911 immediately. When the police arrive, give the police a detailed as you can description of the incident and the malefactor if possible(including where you shot him at). Also have the number of a lawyer who has handled this kind of case before on hand in case you need it. The police can follow the blood trail and check the immediate area,local hospitals, or morgues for this guy. Sorry if this sounds gory or cold on my part. The guys on this forum can fill in the blanks in case I forgot something or have a better approach to this type of situation.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array BenGoodLuck's Avatar
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    Even if the perp was laying on the ground he could still theoretically get up. Also, if you shot several shots in rapid succession and he went from standing to on the ground while you were shooting him, what would the angle of bullet entry prove anyway? When someone has invaded your home, you should have the right to defend yourself and not retreat. And in many states, you have that right. I would feel threatened and feel that my life was endangered if someone entered my home uninvited. I would stop that threat no matter what and no matter how many bullets it took.
    Ben

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