Bad judgement call by CCW holder?
This is a discussion on Bad judgement call by CCW holder? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Foul-mouthed suspects attack man with gun | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional
From what I read, the CCW holder didn't open ...
July 5th, 2009 06:03 PM
Bad judgement call by CCW holder?
Foul-mouthed suspects attack man with gun | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional
From what I read, the CCW holder didn't open fire at the foul mouthed thugs, which led to his head being bashed in and landed him in the hospital. If he did open fire, he would have been prosecuted for being too aggressive, perhaps?
If you read the comments after the story, you'll see how many Seattlelites are anti gun.
Aerospace Designer, Freemason, NRA member
July 5th, 2009 06:03 PM
July 5th, 2009 06:13 PM
Not much info. My first reaction:
Could have been handled differently, the fellow should have gone to the people in charge of the event.
Never show, if you are the target of the kids physical aggression, be willing to draw and discharge. Never pretend.
July 5th, 2009 06:18 PM
He was not a cop, and he should have informed the management of the problem.
I would have moved my family, not confronted the group of teens...if management could not control the group, I would have left.
Exposing his means of self-defense was a big mistake, but he now knows that.
Stay armed...maintain an element of surprise...stay safe!
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
July 5th, 2009 06:32 PM
He brandished his firearm thinking the foul mouths would shut up but that just escalated the situation. He should have let law enforcement handle the situation.
As far as the anti gun comments, they seemed more anti guy with gun not handling himself very well.
We can't stop here...this is bat country.
Res Ipsa Loquitur
July 5th, 2009 06:34 PM
Attacked by a gang of men and brutally assaulted to the point of being hospitalized? I am sure that some knowledgeable WA residents can chime in, but Washington statutes support defense against felonious, dangerous person crimes. IMO, the hospital trip is proof this could have ended much worse.
Gang beating certainly amounts to a felony, and certainly puts a person at great risk of personal injury. Beyond that, after the signs of aggression when the CHL presented his gun and indicated he was in fear of his safety, the gang attacked him. At that moment, it was clear they believed they could overpower a man defending himself with a firearm. That's a bad situation with bad intentions.
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
- In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or
- In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
Though, a DA and Grand Jury might have a problem with having pulled the gun in the first place as evidence of having precipitated the violence. At minimum, it was simply naive tactics. At worst, it was done at a time it was unjustified and launched the blowhards to "defend" themselves. Hard to say, which is why ...
Yup. It is important to be seen as attempting to avoid a conflict instead of precipitating one, too. The option of contacting the facility owners/managers has the benefit of avoiding direct contact with the rabble-rousers. As this situation shows, you never know when folks will blow sideways or at you. One is completely within one's rights to say something. But, one can be dead right. When there are legitimate alternatives that achieve the same thing, that seems an awful waste.
Originally Posted by GBS
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
July 5th, 2009 06:57 PM
very limited information.
It does not help much for this case but it is a great ref for defending your self from a group at a later date.
Yes, he should have left the "keep it down" comment for the leo. Not my job.
My family went north, away from Seattle. i had my Xd with me and we played fresbe in freedome park with friends. more then just I was CC. had a great time. and nothing happened.
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.
July 5th, 2009 07:02 PM
'when seconds count, your gun is at the bottom of a lake'
"When among wild beasts, if they menace you, be a wild beast."
July 5th, 2009 07:21 PM
July 5th, 2009 11:34 PM
1) Leave, and dial 911.
Remove ones self and/or family from said "family type of place" and choose some other area, time, or even place as a whole to convene with ones family.
With distance between you and the potential threat as in the immediate, call the cops and report the aggressor(s) ASAP. Do not delay.
Leaving the area to gain distance from trouble which directly translates in to safety (!) so as to not have yourself beaten down _in front of your family_ in said 'family type of place' or even worse permanently disfigured if not disabled or killed is not being a punk or a loser.
Yes you have as much right to be there as they do and probably more even. But as Kenny Rogers is well known to have advised; "You got to know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em. Know when to walk away. And Know when to run...".
This citizen self defense 101, and does not at all require nor involve any means of defense tool aside from ability to observe ones environment and an ability to think through a problem so as to solve it rather than to react by way of emotion singularly or worse a combo of bravado and cajones to which they do not bring much to the combat response table but a sense of temporary bravado and checks written that might not should be cashed verbal bluster.
2) Carry a can of simma down, as a pre-requisite toward the deployment of lethal force be it a blade or firearm.
OC and/or CS as at a minimum a stand off tool if not a problem solver in and of itself.
No as much is not a can of magic and yes there are people who can and do fight through it. Although they do so impaired, which is to the sprayers benefit and increased odds of ability to flee/escape.
3) Brandishing ones firearm is both unlawful, and threatening to use it is stupid.
The guy tipped his hand...and at the same time showed his handicap.
He told the BGs he would like to play and then went on to show them his trump card. Further in making a veiled threat which is displaying his trump card but not actually using it as in to draw down on them only gave them as a _group_ an advantage to which they knew as a group they could capitalize on to their advantage by way of numbers and timing of action en masse.
He can very likely beat one. But beating two is four times as difficult, being twice as hard _per man_. While hope to beat three or more, which by definition qualifies as being a "group" the effort to win against one muchless the whole becomes exponentially more difficult and by that the odds of the guy with the handgun drops off precipitously.
This is an example of the old staple advisory that one man with a gun versus five in a small space is bad news for the gun guy IF the five can and are willing to act as one force for the sake of the whole. Ones individual odds increase greatly as member of a group rather than as an individual standing alone.
The GG with a gun should have known and understood all of the above.
And at the point that he decided to display his handgun, trump card, he should have already in his own mind made the decision and switched the necessary toggles that would involve unholstering the firearm and drawing down on the opposing force group bringing to bear on them in the _immediate_ his personal force multiplier which in a one on many confrontation is a necessity and even then is not a sure bet ace in the hole. As this gentleman came to learn the very hard and painful shoe to face and head way, as he fought to retain his firearm having had no other tools available at hand be it a retention holster, OC/CS to gain standoff distance, or even a knife at hand so as to use with the off hand to defend against incoming attackers own hands attempting to disarm him.
I'm glad the story does not end with the GG being shot with his own firearm which was not his choice to deny.
It's too bad though that he now has to have suffered as he did so that he and the rest of us by proxy can learn or have reinforced the above three lessons.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
July 6th, 2009 12:01 AM
I agree. I would have done something different.
July 6th, 2009 12:05 AM
I don't see where this is indicated as an event. Westlake is a mixture of commercial and residential properties (houseboats). As I read the story, it sounds like the guy is confronting some kids near his house... but those details are very limited.
The legal problem for him was that using his firearm was not justifiable until it was too late to use it. That's why you don't brandish. Even if the punks did run off, he still broke the law, and they might come back at a more inconvinient time with more inconvinient motives.
Like others said, call the cops. Now you have anonymity AND your weapons on your side.
Crime should be outlawed.
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