Apology, of sorts
This is a discussion on Apology, of sorts within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Howdy all.
Contrary to popular belief I'm not really egotistical or arrogant. I am good at what I do, and I make no apologies for ...
July 18th, 2009 03:46 AM
Apology, of sorts
Contrary to popular belief I'm not really egotistical or arrogant. I am good at what I do, and I make no apologies for that. I do not however know everything, and make no claim to.
Lately some people have thought my post to be hostile and "against the grain". There is a reason for that, and I'll explain in a moment. Let me preface it by saying that I wish nobody to be the victim of a crime, let alone a violent one.
Having carried a gun for over twenty years, and talking with, and knowing how to talk to criminals does give me a perspective that maybe others don't have. Also, with carrying that gun I have learned to avoid having to use it. It's not that I'm unwilling to use it, I just make sure that it is the last possible reasonable option for me at that point.
Having been Mirandized before, as well as under investigation, it does tend to make me see things in a different light. The world is not black and white. The courtroom is various shades of grey in my expirience. With all the new CWP Holders out there, I am afraid that many of them do not have the legal background or practical expirience to know when they can or should use or display their weapon. That is my opinion, unpopular or not.
When a LEO tells me something I tend to take it at face value. Yes, I know LEO's are often wrong, we are after all human, or at least some of us like to think we are. Depending upon what I am told, I may even have to verify what a LEO tells me. If I tell you something I would expect you to verify it too.
Where I seem to be in conflict with many posters here on DC is in the use of a weapon. I think some of this may stem from the number of, "I had to pull my gun today" type threads. If a LEO told me that, I would give him or her the benefit of the doubt. Why you ask?
Because I have something to guage that LEO's reasoning by. That LEO has documented training in the subject matter. Granted, we all can't afford to go to Gunsite, LFI or Thunder Ranch. Some of us can, and those that have, again, I have something to guage by. Sorry gang, but just sitting through a CWP Class does not in my expirience make anyone prepared to safely and effectively carry a gun out in public. I've sat through two of them.
Before I ever went to a law enforcement academy I was already reading and studying tactics. Learning from friends that had been to the "big name" schools and talking with legal minds about the subject material. I thought I was well prepared. After attending my state's academy and the annual training I received, I again thought I was prepared.
When I went to my first "big name" school I thought I was prepared. When I left that school it opened my eyes to how ill-prepared I was, and still am. Also, dealing with the criminal justice system on a daily basis lets me see the whims of the system, and the flaws too. It can be "on a whim" that one case gets prosecuted and another dismissed. If you don't believe me, I'm sorry, but you will just have to take my word for it.
I tend to look at the scenarios posted with a critical eye to the actions taken because there but for the grace of God go I. If I see a way that things could've been handled better I try to point that out, and point out how a prosecutor may view the actions. I also tend to look at things from a "worst case scenario". That way, if I plan for that, I'm prepared. If the "worst case" doesn't materialize I'm no worse off.
I do not do a lot of backslapping and WTG high fives. That is not my nature. If you think I am critical I just ask you to consider how critical a judge, jury, prosecutor, or public opinion may be. If you can't handle my questioning, how well do you think you will be able to withstand the questioning of an Investigator looking to "make a case" because he or she believes you are guilty?
I hope this helps to put things into perspective for some of you. Take care and stay safe.
PS: Mods, I put this in the Defensive Scenarios section because that's where I tend to aggravate people the most. If it's in the wrong spot, please move or delete as you see fit.
July 18th, 2009 07:08 AM
Thank you for your explanation, but I do not feel an apology is necessary. I am one of those new people on the block and I KNOW I do not have all of the answers. That is, of course, why I am here. I also read and watch everything I can find that is pertinent to this subject. I have a profound respect for those who have had, as you say, "big-name" training and/or LEO and military training.
None of us are perfect and none of us are completely prepared for the aftermath of a defensive shooting. We just do the best that we can and try to constantly improve our skills and our knowledge. By asking the tough questions you DO make some of us think about things from a different direction.
If some one gets their feelings hurt, oh well. I say MAN UP (or WOMAN UP) and get over it. Like you said, the really hard questions will be asked by a prosecuter in a MUCH less friendly venue and they will not be interested in holding any one's hand.
BikerRN, thank you.
*WARNING - I may or may not know what I am talking about.
July 18th, 2009 07:34 AM
I agree with the philosophy of your posts, CCW is a serious responsibility, and substituting a macho, cool, or immature attitude about it will get a permit holder in over their head.
Originally Posted by BikerRN
I've been noting that you have been responding to a lot of threads with wake-up call reminders to be sure and take these matters seriously. You are right this isn't a "high five" scenario. Thanks for inserting your experience, maturity, and seriousness here.
July 18th, 2009 08:51 AM
Like you I have carried a long time, well over 20 years.
Unlike you, I have not experienced the world that you know, therefore, I always read your posts with the attitude that you know things I don't.
I do disagree with you at times, different people have different reactions; however, I have never thought of you as "really egotistical or arrogant" as you say.
It bothers me that you feel the need for an "apology"; the messages you convey in your posts are well thought, your delivery style is "direct", I was going to say "in your face", probably because you are that way.
What I am saying to the people who don't like your posts, or mine for that matter, either don't read them or realize that you'll learn more from a different opinion than a similar one.
The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
The second rule: "Bring enough gun"
jfl (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)
July 18th, 2009 09:09 AM
No reason mate. Your posts are, in many cases, full of some sound and badly needed logic.
July 18th, 2009 09:20 AM
I am one who needs to hear from your experience, and to see things from the perspective of one who is around all this, because I am not.
Thanks for the explanation. Very helpful. And I appreciate your being man enough to apologize, tho' I don't think it was necessary, in my personal opinion.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
July 18th, 2009 09:44 AM
No apology needed, as another who has carried well over 20 years both in the military and as a civilian there is always something new to learn and a different way to look at situations.
When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."
July 18th, 2009 09:56 AM
Biker I appreciate your comments here and in other posts. I find it very useful for those with LE or military experience to share it with those of us who do not. I have been carrying for almost 8 years and realize that I am not as well prepared as I should be, but going unarmed is no longer an option, too much bad stuff occurs in our world not to be able to defend yourself. I wish I could afford the time and money to take at least one, if not more of the couse offered by the schools mentioned, but unfortunatley I can't. that being siad, I read what I can, listen/read post here in an attempt to learn. I practice as often as possible and try to mainatain a level of awareness that will keep my family and me safe. I would act in defense of myself or others in only the most life threatening of situations, others wise I will defer to the professionals and try to be the best witness possible. If I am somewhere with my daughter, I will leave if possible. Again, thanks for your posts, please keep them coming, I for one appreciate it.
July 18th, 2009 10:15 AM
I do not remember having a problem with your thoughts, explanations, or suggestions in ANY post(s).
I take what I can use, and mentally agree or disagree with some of the things people say or suggest, but we're all different...we are all speaking from different perspectives...they are all ideas, and important to digest.
No problems at THIS computer site...
Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
July 18th, 2009 10:22 AM
I agree with everyone here so far. Keep the posts coming!
July 18th, 2009 11:06 AM
Actually, your posts are usually spot on. Too many people are looking for an excuse to pull their weapons and point them at someone. In 25 years, I've never had to unholstser and point at someone. Stand your ground is fine, looking for reasons to do so is not. Sometimes it is even better to "lose" without pulling the gun than to win by introducing it into the conflice. Post on, we can all keep reading. Best -
July 18th, 2009 11:34 AM
In more than 15yrs of carrying, I have only found it necessary to draw one time, and that itself was sufficient to stop the attackers and send them on their way. I, too, see many as far too willing to draw weapons in clearly non-life-threating situations.
Originally Posted by Jay Frame
Something to keep in mind: one's lack of knowledge about a poster's background is insufficient to utterly doubt the ability of the person to appreciate the situation, the potential ramifications and the legal tangle that can be involved with a certain course of action. Many folks have far more training than a single, solitary 4-8hr course with Johnny "CHL" Johnson, the local newbie, NRA "certified" instructor. Many folks have been through the blender a few times and can offer a tempered perspective. Many folks have direct experience through the eyes of the legal or law enforcement community, with its own shades of gray. IME, most folks have something to bring to the table.
Originally Posted by BikerRN
As we've discussed, the totality of circumstances applies in each and every situation. That "totality" involves the defender's training and mental/physical gauges, too, as these are either more- or less-finely tuned based on specific training and related experience, as you suggest. Good point.
That being said, I'm also aware of some of my limitations in terms of skills, training, legal background. (You don't know what you don't know until you find out what you know, you know?) Each and every time I learn more and work with someone from a different, deeper background, I learn more than expected. May that always be the case.
Agreed, that one can hardly appreciate a situation's "finer" points until one either sees or participates in legal action involving zealotry that seeks a head on a pike. Being an "outside," I have seen only a few trials go sideways for people based largely on zealotry, not on reasonably obvious guilt. Grilling on that scale can be "london broil," to be sure, well beyond any direct Q&A we have here.
None of which changes the basic math when the chips are down, on the instant of a situation blowing sideways. You learn what you can, and you take your precautions but, in the end, the ability to correctly assess, competently react and ultimately resist damage is the ultimate gauge of success. As you point out, BRN, that includes physical as well as financial, social and legal damage. Coming out the sieve clean isn't the easiest thing to do, as those who have been through more than one "dance" can attest.
Last edited by ccw9mm; July 18th, 2009 at 02:05 PM.
July 18th, 2009 12:30 PM
There are many members who have an expertise in a particular area and are not shy about pointing that out when they post.
I have never had a problem with that and am grateful for their willingness to share their expertise.
No apology necessary from you, please continue to share your views on an important subject.
"It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."
J. R. R. Tolkien
July 18th, 2009 01:13 PM
No apolgies needed
I was involved in an officer involved shooting when I was a Leo, it turned out justified for another officer and I put believe you me you never want to go through that no matter how much training you have it haunts you for the rest of your life.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
July 18th, 2009 03:30 PM
+1 ... Well said. Keep on posting Biker...There are a couple of folks on here that I have the utmost respect for when I see their posts, and I guess I have to admit, YOU are one of them. The beauty of this site is the fact that opinions will almost always vary, but one can usually sort the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and discern fact from fiction. All of this is done with the help of the moderators enforcing the rules of the site, AND for the majority of us, the respect to follow those rules when voicing ourselves. IMHO no apology is required..
Originally Posted by jfl
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
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