Interesting Incidents at Church

Interesting Incidents at Church

This is a discussion on Interesting Incidents at Church within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok so a few months ago we had a guy whos family has been going to our church a long time. I know as the ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array cmb's Avatar
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    Interesting Incidents at Church

    Ok so a few months ago we had a guy whos family has been going to our church a long time. I know as the pastor and through observation there are some psychological issues with fellow. He showed up at my door at 7am before church scaring my wife, I was still in the bedroom gearing up for the day, reviewing sermon in my mind getting ready to put my suit on when she alerts my to his presence. I grap my 380 (didn't have my pf9 or 1911 at that time), tuck it away and do not go out the door he is at but go around the house to talk. He is off his medication and not making much sense at all, in fact he was down right off. I notify some others as well as LEO who attend only a few who need to know, no need to panic. Things were a little weird for two weeks in service and sunday school. he is in the class i attend as well as 3 LEO's, one former LEO, and a blackbelt school principal (very comforting b/cusually at least 2 of those are there also). Then he is "baker acted". He wanted us to find him if he didn't return but we could not find all the details as to his locations, they moved him to various facilities.

    Fast forward to his return, he was not happy that our class did not "come and get him" (which would makes the news, Sunday school class breaks out psychologically unstable person). Anyway I was on vacation that day... but this week he was back (back on his meds) and confronted me as to why I did not seek him out and get him, he confronted me while I was checking on some 1st and 2nd graders in a class adjacent to mine and he started to get puffed up and used foul language. I was fine with listening and I want to help but there is a time and place. I casually slip my hand in my pocket (BUG) just in case and firmly instruct him to calm down and if he would like to talk we can but not here; and not to use that language near these children or we will ask him to leave. He backed off and returned to class, talked with me after service in a better state. When he is on his meds you can tell by his apearance, they said the first week he was clean shaven, but this week (2 weeks later) he had a full gotee and not shaven, not scruffy but it had been a day or so. He said they found some meds that work for him and he was on them. He is paranoid skitz.

    In between those incidents another intersting fellow approached me one day and by some of the things he said and they way he said them I got the impression he was lloking to see what he could get away with and to stir things up. He was an older fellow in a skin tight tie dye shirt and very snug knee length sweat pants with his midriff showing. It was hard for him to conceal his other attribute let alne a weapon. He talked with me for a whie and went on his way, I invited him to church even though I was probably one of those Jesus fundamentalists he came. (I wouldn't consider my self a fundamentalists but he wasn't the kind you could convince of anything). He came to church dressed the same, which doesn't bother me but he would never sit down, he started stomping around in the back, making noise, exploring or should I say rummaging through rooms, and then when asked if he liked to sit or if he wanted to talk he said "no, I just go check on the kids I am more comfortable with them anyway". He was politely followed by two of our deacons and one LEO an observed leaving. Mostof this occured while I was preaching and observing some, well doing my thing but keeping my eye on the back.

    Several churches have security teams and now I know why... even in our small town we have had these things as well as people stealing out of cars in church parking lots less than a year ago.

    Guess we all need to be prepared...
    Last edited by cmb; July 20th, 2009 at 03:10 PM. Reason: udate on first incident


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array GreenHorn's Avatar
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    Some extra boxes of Fruit Loops kept on hand might not hurt either.
    I hear it calms them down.

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    CMB,

    Sounds like just another day in the ministry.
    I think you handled the situation during Sunday School very well.

    It sounds like your guys were on it, but I think it's time to form those LEOs and the blackbelt into a formal security team.

    My team is trained to respond to this type of behavior. I would not allow an individual with this type of behavior to rummage through rooms or "check on the kids." Big red flag. Even if I am in the middle of my sermon, I'm going to pause to say "Ushers, please attend to this gentleman." They are trained to ask the person to sit and if refused they will escort him out.
    We have also trained that if I publicly address any of my team by their last name (Mr. Jones, Please attend to this gentleman) that it is a heightened security situation and they go to Orange or Red as the situation demands.

    I figure that a person like this is already distracting people from my sermon anyway, so it is more expedient just to address the siutation head on and then resume.

    Also, sorry to hear that your wife was startled by the early wake-up. Do you live in a parsonage on the church property or did he show up at your private residence?
    God is love (1 John 4:8)

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHorn View Post
    Some extra boxes of Fruit Loops kept on hand might not hurt either.
    I hear it calms them down.
    You are what you eat!
    God is love (1 John 4:8)

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array cmb's Avatar
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    live on campus, which is extremely conveinent, we own houses elsewhere but with meetings and all that is demanded as you know it is a great location, sometimes. We alsohave 4 playgrounds, baseball field, basketball & tennis courts so it is great for my kids. My wife is now trained on a 9mm and the 380 and knows what to do and where to take all the kids should something disasterous occur. She is a great shot too, she was brought up around guns and shoot a mean ruger target pistol, as I was training her on other guns to find one she is comfortable with we moved to a standing position, no plugs, no glasses to get the feel... I loaded 2 rounds and told her to shoot the bowling pin, makes her draw/raise the gun and shoot, she does it all, hits the pin with the first shot at 10 yards and says "now what?"... we are more prepared now... but as you know it can be interesting

  6. #6
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    Definitely sounds as if you need security.

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    Yep, I live on campus too (I like the sound of that, it's sounds like I pastor a bigger church )

    Great story about yuor wife's shooting ability.
    God is love (1 John 4:8)

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    cmb,

    Sounds familiar. In a 2 week period a few years ago, I had 2 guys, both bi-polar, show up. One was suicidal, the other I thought might be homicidal. I ended up reporting both.

    The one I thought might be homicidal ended up threatening to kill me (3 different threats). That is actually what got me thinking about carrying a weapon.

    I have lived in a parsonage on campus (loved it and hated it). Very exposed, but very convenient for both work and family. Also easy for anyone to show up at anytime, good, bad or indifferent. I now live about a mile from the church. When the guy threatened to kill me, there was some comfort in the fact that my address was not in the phone book, or on the internet, and I didn't live on church property. It gave me some degree of safety.

    Keep your awareness up. I can deal with getting killed for Jesus. I don't have much patience for ending up dead because someone who is mentally ill is off his meds.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmb View Post
    In between those incidents another intersting fellow approached me one day and by some of the things he said and they way he said them I got the impression he was lloking to see what he could get away with and to stir things up. He was an older fellow in a skin tight tie dye shirt and very snug knee length sweat pants with his midriff showing. It was hard for him to conceal his other attribute let alne a weapon. He talked with me for a whie and went on his way, I invited him to church even though I was probably one of those Jesus fundamentalists he came. (I wouldn't consider my self a fundamentalists but he wasn't the kind you could convince of anything). He came to church dressed the same, which doesn't bother me but he would never sit down, he started stomping around in the back, making noise, exploring or should I say rummaging through rooms, and then when asked if he liked to sit or if he wanted to talk he said "no, I just go check on the kids I am more comfortable with them anyway". He was politely followed by two of our deacons and one LEO an observed leaving. Mostof this occured while I was preaching and observing some, well doing my thing but keeping my eye on the back.

    Several churches have security teams and now I know why... even in our small town we have had these things as well as people stealing out of cars in church parking lots less than a year ago.

    Guess we all need to be prepared...
    It doesn't sound like he got near your kids (I'm not sure of that by the way you worded it), but he is not getting near our kids if we can do anything about it. We try to do Safe Sanctuary stuff, which means only those who have been background-checked and trained are allowed to be with youth or children.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array cmb's Avatar
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    Mike,
    yep, agreed will die for the gospel but not for random violence or stupidity, he did not get near any kids and never would. We have a list of some 40 people with approved background checks and any new folks are welcome but must have one for our security and liability. Must be alert and aware and protective of others in attendance also... thanks... I will probably set one of my deacons on the security team idea and let them get a rotation going.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array cmb's Avatar
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    Mike,
    how'd you handle the threats and what became of that? When this first occured I called my pastor/mentor for advice because this was a new one on me and we had some incidents at our last church...

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmb View Post
    Mike,
    how'd you handle the threats and what became of that? When this first occured I called my pastor/mentor for advice because this was a new one on me and we had some incidents at our last church...
    I reported to my local PD. I wasn't taking a chance it was just talk.
    He ended up moving out of state, tho' his family is still near me.

    I did not get my CWFL at that time. It eventually faded into the background. Then, VT happened. That did it for me. I decided I would not kneel and beg for my life because some BG decided he had power over me. I researched, purchased a weapon, took my class in less than a month, and had my CWFL 37 days later (in the good ol' days, before the Dept of Ag was overwhelmed).

    Been learnin', listenin', practicin' and preparin' ever since.
    Hmm, sounds like a sermon in there somewhere.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array cmb's Avatar
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    Good sermon in there... thanks for the response

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    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    We've been conducting security training in the church I attend for the last few months. The focus has been awareness (things to watch for) and drilled how to address and if necessary escorting or subdue/remove a disruptive/violent individual from the church.

    Unfortunately downstate NY is very strict with respect to issuing unrestricted CCW's (pretty much limited to retired LEO's and the well connected) so if an armed individual decides to do something crazy during a service the response would be limited to a gang rush of unarmed security personnel attempting to subdue the attacker. We've got half a dozen LEO's that attend the church but there is no set schedule and I don't even think some of the carry on Sunday mornings.

  15. #15
    Member Array jjkjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PastorPack View Post
    You are what you eat!
    so pastor pack if i eat "Special K" does that make me special.........
    XD9sc
    Ruger LCP 380
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