Davenport IA officer kills unarmed man

This is a discussion on Davenport IA officer kills unarmed man within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The best man at my wedding is a Sgt with East Moline IL. In the video below the plain clothes officer that comes up is ...

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Thread: Davenport IA officer kills unarmed man

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Davenport IA officer kills unarmed man

    The best man at my wedding is a Sgt with East Moline IL. In the video below the plain clothes officer that comes up is with his agency.

    The suspect was wanted for an assault at the local soup kitchen. For some reason he punched a volunteer in the face and fled.

    What happened out of camera range was the suspect mounted the officer and was punching him in the face and slamming his head against the concrete. He then bit a chunk out of the officers eye brow. The officer was able to deploy his weapon and fire two contact shots into the suspect killing him. Even though the plain clothes detective was yelling verbal commands and striking the suspect from behind the officer on the bottom did not hear him and could not see him because blood in his eyes. This shooting is a good as it gets and has already been cleared.

    Keep this in mind when you contemplate on under what circumstances you would use deadly force. I don't think they cover this one in IDPA. BTW we just trained for his exact event this weekend before I knew about it.

    Police video: Centennial Bridge shooting

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    I'm glad the officer will be OK. This scumbag must have been 'hyped' on something...fortunately a couple of lead injections cured his problems...permanently.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Substantial criminal history. His thing was beating people, he picked the wrong cop.

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    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    he gets tased but is able to fight... it must be that product that is the competitor to the X26, I forget the name...

    that being said, i'm glad those cars stopped when they saw it happen, perhaps could have been good citizens who might have saved the officer's life.

    I sure would have.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Just cause he doesn't have a weapon means he is unarmed,you can be beaten or choked to death
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Just because someone won't succumb to their wounds doesn't always mean that they are "hyped" on something.

    Some people just take a lot to stop, and are almost inhuman in regards to their pain threshold.

    Biker

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Just cause he doesn't have a weapon means he is unarmed,you can be beaten or choked to death
    Right. Everyone is armed with hands, feet, elbows, knees, attitude and adrenaline. All it takes is the wrong circumstances and a catalyst for some to get visions of criminal grandeur.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Right. Everyone is armed with hands, feet, elbows, knees, attitude and adrenaline. All it takes is the wrong circumstances and a catalyst for some to get visions of criminal grandeur.
    That was the idea of the title to show that you will no always face a weapon.

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    Senior Member Array nosights's Avatar
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    So if we take the guns away from bad people, then bad things stop happening right? Then it must be even more true of taking guns away from good people!
    Pray for our nations leaders!

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    This is one of those very large gray areas that truly sucks with CCW and the law. When exactly does an unarmed assailant become "lethal force and/or great bodily harm"?

    I do have to say that I hope the task fixation for the officer as he tased the suspect to no effect is a real eye openner for the people on this board. If you chose to use non-lethal (or even lethal) force options, you need to be prepared for them to fail as much as you are prepared for them to succeed. When the suspect charged the officer (and I suspect it was a lack of the second probe making a good circuit), he just clutched the trigger and pointed the useless taser at his assailant as he backpedalled for room rather than dumping the object that kept his hands together and easier to move out of the way of the first punch. Arms slapped away to the side, the officer got bound up in the tackle and it was straight downhill from there.
    Now, I'm not going to front like a punk and say that I could have done better. In all honesty, I probably would have done it worse with my limited firearms training leading to me dropping the weapon or getting it taken from me and being shot by my own Glock like an idiot. I'm just trying to show that you can take a snippet like this and learn more from it than "tasers suck unless it's brand x".

    Don't just train to win with your first tool. You need to train to fail with that first option, to switch options on the fly and under conditions as adverse as possible while still being safe for the practicing personnel, and then to prevail with the other option(s) despite the initial adversity.

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    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Well, the standard in many areas with regards to CC and the law is "disparity of force," not necessarily whether they're armed, although being armed certain causes a very clear disparity quite quickly.

    A 300 lb man on top of a 90 lb woman is a disparity, even if he doesn't have so much as a pencil on him.

    Remember the standard in most areas is whether you are "in imminent fear of serious injury and/or death" to yourself and/or your loved ones. Not whether he/she has a knife, gun, whatever. In some areas the standard can also include property, but unfortunately Florida is not one of those places.

    At any rate, I hope the officer makes a full recovery, both physically and mentally. And definitely no sympathy for the dead perp.

    I just wonder; if the detective was standing directly behind the suspect, and the officer shot the suspect, did that mean zero or negligible overpenetration of the rounds? I figured even a HP round would overpenetrate at least a bit, especially one fired at such close distance.

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    We have been doing this exact scenario during force on force quite a while. Too many people view only weapons as deadly force, and some only certain weapons. There are only three ways to cause trauma to a human body, burning, cutting and crushing. And only three body systems that are effected, Central Nervous System (brain and spinal cord) , Circulatory/Respiratory System (breathing, blood flow), Structural Systems (comprised of bones, muscles, and ligaments).

    Whenever you are attacked it is likely that a combination of these systems will be effected.

    Deadly force- force that is likely to cause serious physical injury and/or death. Some state include maiming and disfigurement.

    Take any situation and apply this standard-

    Ability-
    Weapon employed
    Force in numbers
    Able vs. disabled
    Male against female
    Physical size/strength

    Opportunity- capable of immediately employing force.


    Jeopardy- The attacker is acting in a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that they intend to kill or cripple.

    After asking these questions I think we can all agree that deadly force was justified on the part of the officer. The suspect was using his fists, the ground, and his teeth and impact and edged weapons. The officer was disabled because he was blind from blood in his eyes, on his back, and loosing consciousness. The suspect was bigger than the officer and in a dominant position. The officer was obviously in jeopardy of being killed or crippled, even without considering him being disarmed.


    Putting a million rounds dead center of a target at the speed of light will not prepare you for this type of incident. It should be a wake up call for anyone that carries a pistol to get into some realistic force on force training. Just be prepared to see that much of your previous firearms training may be of little value at contact distance. If you have an open mind and are willing train the truth is out there.

    Too often shooter envision a shooting happening in the following manner- someone approaches them for a criminal purpose, they have time to draw down on the suspect and give verbal commands. The suspect fails to comply and continues to advance forcing the shooter to fire.

    There is an excellent chance that you will need to fire during a break in physical contact, or while at grappling range with contact shots, thus "shooting the bad guy off of you". To over simplify and underestimate the ridiculous situations that could cause you to deploy your handgun is a huge mindset mistake.

    - George

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    Senior Member Array mi2az's Avatar
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    You know, What was taught in CCW class that the BG displayed physical force and not deadly force. I would shoot, but i was taught in CCW, if I did in that scenario , I could go to jail, even if the guy had a lead pipe swinging at me.
    "When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."

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    Mercop, that's a really nice post. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    We have been doing this exact scenario during force on force quite a while. Too many people view only weapons as deadly force, and some only certain weapons. There are only three ways to cause trauma to a human body, burning, cutting and crushing. And only three body systems that are effected, Central Nervous System (brain and spinal cord) , Circulatory/Respiratory System (breathing, blood flow), Structural Systems (comprised of bones, muscles, and ligaments).

    Whenever you are attacked it is likely that a combination of these systems will be effected.

    Deadly force- force that is likely to cause serious physical injury and/or death. Some state include maiming and disfigurement.

    Take any situation and apply this standard-

    Ability-
    Weapon employed
    Force in numbers
    Able vs. disabled
    Male against female
    Physical size/strength

    Opportunity- capable of immediately employing force.


    Jeopardy- The attacker is acting in a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that they intend to kill or cripple.

    After asking these questions I think we can all agree that deadly force was justified on the part of the officer. The suspect was using his fists, the ground, and his teeth and impact and edged weapons. The officer was disabled because he was blind from blood in his eyes, on his back, and loosing consciousness. The suspect was bigger than the officer and in a dominant position. The officer was obviously in jeopardy of being killed or crippled, even without considering him being disarmed.


    Putting a million rounds dead center of a target at the speed of light will not prepare you for this type of incident. It should be a wake up call for anyone that carries a pistol to get into some realistic force on force training. Just be prepared to see that much of your previous firearms training may be of little value at contact distance. If you have an open mind and are willing train the truth is out there.

    Too often shooter envision a shooting happening in the following manner- someone approaches them for a criminal purpose, they have time to draw down on the suspect and give verbal commands. The suspect fails to comply and continues to advance forcing the shooter to fire.

    There is an excellent chance that you will need to fire during a break in physical contact, or while at grappling range with contact shots, thus "shooting the bad guy off of you". To over simplify and underestimate the ridiculous situations that could cause you to deploy your handgun is a huge mindset mistake.

    - George
    Mercop, that's a really nice post. Thanks.

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Glad you found it helpful

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