Question about the "guy jumped out of the dark" thread - Page 4

Question about the "guy jumped out of the dark" thread

This is a discussion on Question about the "guy jumped out of the dark" thread within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by atctimmy After cooling off a bit I'd like to apologize to Mulle46, Sixto, 64zebra and all the other LEOs here I may ...

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  1. #46
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    After cooling off a bit I'd like to apologize to Mulle46, Sixto, 64zebra and all the other LEOs here I may have offended with my statement.


    What I really dislike is Biker and Medpigs "I'm better than you" attitude.
    To me that just smacks of, "they haven't said or done anything I disagree with", yet. I also notice that they don't post in here much, if at all. Do you ever wonder why that is?

    Speaking for myself, I've never stated I was better. If you inferred that, well then, that's on you. What I am is a middle-aged guy that wants to go home at the end of his shift. What I'm doing now is not what I have always done, nor am I with the only agency I have ever worked for.

    You seem to think, you and many others, that your "rights" are more important than anything. I have news for you, they aren't. Even your beloved Supremes have said the same as me.

    There has to be a balance between your rights and the interest of safety. Go read the Terry Stop decision again. Reasonableness seems to be a common theme with those decisions, and what they have deemed as reasonable.

    It is NOT unreasonable to have a homeowner disarm when LEO's show up. If that offends you, too bad. Quite frankly I don't think you've ever seen unlimited freedom. If you had it would scare the crap out of you. Your writing of "the people" smacks of the inability to reason logicly and think in a forward manner. In short, I don't think you have thought the situation out to the possible outcomes.

    Many people here seem to be real big on chest thumping and fluffing their feathers. Well, I'll just go preen myself now.

    Biker


  2. #47
    Member Array muddy's Avatar
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    Its hard to follow whats going on with Biker on ignore. I almost took him off to see what he had to say but then decided i couldn't.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine1856 View Post
    I am a little curious as to why the police made the homeowner "secure his weapon" before talking to him. What would you do in this situation. I understand making the officer more comfortable, but I am at my home and well within my rights to carry concealed or open. After all I am a law abiding citizen who is not doing anything against the law.

    My first reaction would have been to say no. I know this situation is very different, but when I read the post I "felt" the same gut reaction as when a store has a no guns sign. I say "no, I will not give up my rights" and take my business elsewhere.

    What say you?
    If an officer came to my door to take a report, I doubt that I'd invite him in. No... I don't invite the pizza guy in either. That's what porches are for -- to talk with people that you don't have reason to invite into your house. Making a police report is 'porch business' for me; others may be more polite.

    Since we are merely discussing the details of whatever form he is filling in, he will be on his side of the threshold; namely the 'out' side. I will remain inside. I don't expect that the subject of me being armed would come up. I conceal even in my house and I can't imagine a reason to mention it over the phone in the first place. Assuming he was somehow aware of my weapon and asked me to disarm before he completed his paperwork, I suppose I might consider it, if the report was very important to me.

    However, filing a police report is not a traffic stop, a Terry stop, a felony stop, nor any other kind of stop. It is an officer writing some stuff on paper. Nothing more, unless and until someone does something stupid. If I got a whiff of the attitudes present here (Friday Night Smackdown), I almost surely would cancel the report immediately. There's got to be a way to do this over the phone or internet, anyway, and avoid your rights being muddled on a whim.

  4. #49
    New Member Array wolverine1856's Avatar
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    Well I have not been on here in a few days so I just finished catching up.

    I guess my problem is with some officers thinking they have some superior ground to stand on when it comes to carrying a weapon. Okay you walked into the room so you are the only one allowed to carry a weapon, because you wear the badge of civil servant. That makes no sense.

    The only time officers have been in my house I was not armed and I invited them in. I was calling to talk about the guy driving his snowmobile down the sidewalk of my street at 70mph with kids next door making snowmen in the yard (suburb type highly populated residential area and If he would have just stayed in the street I would not have cared). I guess I just didn’t feel like they needed to take a report standing in the snow and cold outside. I am rethinking that scenario now. I wouldn’t want one of them to see my Wife holding a knife while cutting potatoes in the kitchen and react by pointing a shotgun at her.

    I feel like the current state of affairs would warrant me putting my weapon away because I don't want to get shot by a jumpy officer. Again that just does not seem right to me. Maybe the root cause is the training of the officers. However, I don’t want to assume all of the Officers in my neck of the woods would react the same way as some posters on here. That would be like assuming all people who carry guns legally in a holster besides me are a danger to my life.

    Biker,
    You say you are not superior to anyone, but man your posts sure present a different story. I won’t ignore you and I don’t expect you will change, but you are not helping your cause by writing the way you do. But hey to each their own, that is the great thing about this country. I would say nobody can take that right away, but be careful a cop might take it as confrontational and temporarily suspend your 1A right by locking you up.

    Good posts on this topic, thanks for the insight. Also thanks to the poster with the clip from the MSP site.

  5. #50
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine1856 View Post
    I am a little curious as to why the police made the homeowner "secure his weapon" before talking to him. What would you do in this situation. I understand making the officer more comfortable, but I am at my home and well within my rights to carry concealed or open. After all I am a law abiding citizen who is not doing anything against the law.

    My first reaction would have been to say no. I know this situation is very different, but when I read the post I "felt" the same gut reaction as when a store has a no guns sign. I say "no, I will not give up my rights" and take my business elsewhere.

    What say you?
    i felt i should respond to this, since this question was sort of directed at my story, in a roundabout kinda way. there's been some "issues" with the police in my area, and in the entire Commonwealth, with non-LEOs carrying lawfully, especially open carrying. many LEOs would rather we not carry at all, so to see a non-LEO carrying, and using a gun to defend themselves (even without having to draw it) is appalling to them. they believe that they are the only ones qualified to carry a gun, and the rest of us are a danger to the community.

    mind you, i'm not talking about all LEOs, or even most of them. but i've had to deal with enough of them, and i've been to the Domelights.com forum, where many Philly officers have publicly stated that if they saw a guy open carrying, they'd "put two in his melon", or "shoot first, and arrest him later." very professional, yes?

    the next time (and i hope there isn't one) i need to call the police, and they ask that i disarm, i'll be sure to ask for an officer whose testicles have fully descended.

  6. #51
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    i felt i should respond to this, since this question was sort of directed at my story, in a roundabout kinda way. there's been some "issues" with the police in my area, and in the entire Commonwealth, with non-LEOs carrying lawfully, especially open carrying. many LEOs would rather we not carry at all, so to see a non-LEO carrying, and using a gun to defend themselves (even without having to draw it) is appalling to them. they believe that they are the only ones qualified to carry a gun, and the rest of us are a danger to the community.

    mind you, i'm not talking about all LEOs, or even most of them. but i've had to deal with enough of them, and i've been to the Domelights.com forum, where many Philly officers have publicly stated that if they saw a guy open carrying, they'd "put two in his melon", or "shoot first, and arrest him later." very professional, yes?

    the next time (and i hope there isn't one) i need to call the police, and they ask that i disarm, i'll be sure to ask for an officer whose testicles have fully descended.
    And all the permit holders running around thinking they are going to shoot someone and be a "hero" is great too huh?

    The next time I run into a permit holder that thinks this way I'll replace his gun with a squirt gun, pat him on the head and tell him to "Go get 'em Champ."

    I'm out.

  7. #52
    Member Array Holger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    And all the permit holders running around thinking they are going to shoot someone and be a "hero" is great too huh?

    The next time I run into a permit holder that thinks this way I'll replace his gun with a squirt gun, pat him on the head and tell him to "Go get 'em Champ."

    I'm out.
    At least Biker acknowledges jahwarrior72 was correct in his assessment of Biker. I wonder if Biker really thinks all CCW holders are scouring the 'hood for BGs to kill. I'm certainly glad not all cops (note, Biker has said he's not a cop) think like Biker.

    Now you go ride forth, Biker, Knight o' the realm, and don't let the peasants interfere with your mission.

  8. #53
    New Member Array wolverine1856's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    And all the permit holders running around thinking they are going to shoot someone and be a "hero" is great too huh?
    I don't know a single permit holder that thinks this way. So I guess one of us is out of touch with reality.

    Perhaps you should also reconsider the company you keep. Just something to think about.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    To me that just smacks of, "they haven't said or done anything I disagree with", yet. I also notice that they don't post in here much, if at all. Do you ever wonder why that is?
    I've had more than one disagreement with Sixto. I still respect his opinion. Then again he doesn't tarnish the image of his profession like you do

    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Speaking for myself, I've never stated I was better. If you inferred that, well then, that's on you. What I am is a middle-aged guy that wants to go home at the end of his shift. What I'm doing now is not what I have always done, nor am I with the only agency I have ever worked for.
    Your "I don't think non-LEO" statements paint a pretty clear picture. Also, didn't you just state "Sadly, the more I'm on this board the less I like civilians"
    (even though you are one)? Inferred? I don't think so. Clearly stated is more like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    You seem to think, you and many others, that your "rights" are more important than anything. I have news for you, they aren't. Even your beloved Supremes have said the same as me.
    Yes I do think that. I spent my time in the sandbox and in Somalia doing my part to uphold and defend our constitution. I have taken the oath no fewer than three times to uphold and defend the Constitution of the united States against all enemies foreign and domestic. I take that oath seriously. Are you the enemy biker? It sure sounds like it.

    I asked you once before if you remember the oath that you swore. Do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    There has to be a balance between your rights and the interest of safety. Go read the Terry Stop decision again. Reasonableness seems to be a common theme with those decisions, and what they have deemed as reasonable.
    I have no problem with balance and I want the good guys to come home to their families at night. I just don't want to get steam rolled in the process. At a traffic stop I expect to play by your rules. When I call you to my home we will play by my rules. How's that for balance?

    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    It is NOT unreasonable to have a homeowner disarm when LEO's show up. If that offends you, too bad.

    It IS unreasonable for me to disarm in my own home when I have committed no crime or infraction. To think otherwise is idiotic. In an earlier post you referenced a "lawful order" statute stating that people are required to obey what police tell them. Guess what, they aren't. The key to these laws is that it has to be a "lawful" order. Meaning it has the weight of the law behind it. I am not legally bound to pay for your lunch if you order me to am I? No? Then why would you think I'm legally bound to disarm in my own home if I have committed no offense just because you say so?

    The OP in the original thread didn't call a white knight to sally forth and save him. He saved himself by being armed. You got that last part, right? HE SAVED HIMSELF. But due to our overactive and perverted legal system he needed to call the police and file a report to cover his behind in the event of the perp playing a fast one. He didn't call a knight in shining armor, he called a glorified clerk to come to his house and file some paperwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Quite frankly I don't think you've ever seen unlimited freedom. If you had it would scare the crap out of you. Your writing of "the people" smacks of the inability to reason logicly and think in a forward manner. In short, I don't think you have thought the situation out to the possible outcomes.
    I take responsibility for the safety of my family and myself. Frankly, I think we would all be much safer with fewer laws and fewer police. I'm not a cowering sheep Biker, it would not "scare the crap out of me". I certainly don't need (or want) guys like you thinking that they are my knight in shining armor.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  10. #55
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I take responsibility for the safety of my family and myself. Frankly, I think we would all be much safer with fewer laws and fewer police. I'm not a cowering sheep Biker, it would not "scare the crap out of me". I certainly don't need (or want) guys like you thinking that they are my knight in shining armor.
    And I don't want the untrained masses running around with guns. There are already restrictions on lots of so-called rights.

    I'm not a cowering sheep Biker, it would not "scare the crap out of me".
    That to me says two things.

    First, that you are foolish and secondly, that you probably haven't seen as much as you claim to.

    I'm out. Wrestling with a pig only gets you hot, sweaty and muddy. Also, the pig enjoys it.

    Biker

  11. #56
    Member Array carry ok's Avatar
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    A good....

    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    If an officer came to my door to take a report, I doubt that I'd invite him in. No... I don't invite the pizza guy in either. That's what porches are for -- to talk with people that you don't have reason to invite into your house. Making a police report is 'porch business' for me; others may be more polite.

    Since we are merely discussing the details of whatever form he is filling in, he will be on his side of the threshold; namely the 'out' side. I will remain inside. I don't expect that the subject of me being armed would come up. I conceal even in my house and I can't imagine a reason to mention it over the phone in the first place. Assuming he was somehow aware of my weapon and asked me to disarm before he completed his paperwork, I suppose I might consider it, if the report was very important to me.

    However, filing a police report is not a traffic stop, a Terry stop, a felony stop, nor any other kind of stop. It is an officer writing some stuff on paper. Nothing more, unless and until someone does something stupid. If I got a whiff of the attitudes present here (Friday Night Smackdown), I almost surely would cancel the report immediately. There's got to be a way to do this over the phone or internet, anyway, and avoid your rights being muddled on a whim.
    and to my eye, succinct summary of the issue, as I understood the OP. My casual observances of posts seem to indicate a few here who make the charge of 'Rambo', 'wannabe heroes' and such posting on these forums. I just do not see it personally, even though one member provided his evidence when I requested it. It seemed weak evidence to me. I do see, however, ample evidence of arrogant pomposity on the part of a few regular posters, who seem to write as though they are somehow exalted, and write in very condescending tones toward other posters. If the phrase has not been 'coined' as yet, let me be the first, I see a few 'forum ninjas' writing regularly. Just my honest, and most humble opinion. Jus' sayin'.
    Last edited by carry ok; August 8th, 2009 at 07:24 PM.
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

  12. #57
    Member Array Dihappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muddy View Post
    I don't understand. You all stand up for your rights and say its my right to carry and what not. Then about everyone that posted on this thread says yes I would disarm or be disarmed because its all about safety. Well are you not being treated like a criminal? Can you not be trusted with a weapon?

    Some of you would fully put your life in a cops hands and say since the cop is there I feel safe to be disarmed. Well you do not know this cop, what he will do under stress, or if he can even hit a thing with his pistol.

    I don't get it, one minute this forum is spouting off about gun owner rights and you ain't taking my gun and the next its saying sure treat me like a no account criminal, take my gun.

    Dose a cop have a right to disarm you if you see him in a grocery store and you stop to chat with him? What difference is there from chatting with a cop in a store about the weather and filling out a report about a guy jumping out of the bushes on a trail by your house. Nothing that I can see. Same with a car accident, what gives them a right to disarm you then? Every time I pass a cop in a parking lot should I tell him I have a weapon and should I disarm?

    I really figured this thread would have went the other way.
    +1

    If a cop asked me to disarm in my own home or on my own land i would only do so fast enough to get them off my property and end the conversation.
    "...trying to get a long gun into play while someone is all over you like a monkey eating a cupcake is not very conducive to good survival techniques." ~Bark'n

  13. #58
    Member Array Dihappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MedPig View Post
    Yeah, as a retired cop, I'm NOT about to stand in front of someone who's level of training I don't know, motives I don't know, and allow any weapons around that aren't on MY body. Yeah, I'm as 2A as everyone else here, but during "Officer Survival Week" in the academy, we got a taste of every possible way it could go wrong.

    My job is to go home at the end of the shift. Period. I don't care if I hurt your feelings, bruise your tender pride, or insult your mother. I'm going home intact.

    You can have your gun back when I'm done with you.
    Yet we're suppose to disarm in front of a cop who may have only qualified once last year?
    Heck ive talked to actual police officers who couldnt remember what kind of gun they carry!
    "oh, its some kind of 9mm"

    I thank you for your service to the public, but its cops like you who people like myself would rather not deal with.
    "...trying to get a long gun into play while someone is all over you like a monkey eating a cupcake is not very conducive to good survival techniques." ~Bark'n

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    I've come into this thread a bit late, and I'm surprised at what I see here.
    I sometimes get nervous around other people with firearms, if I don't know them, their level of training and experience, and their intentions.
    However a LEO is not one of those people, I have a little more confidence in their intentions, even if I don't know them personally, or the level of training they have had.
    I know several LEOs and of those who I know well, we will both agree, I am a better shot than they are. That said we both agree that we are people first, people who just want to go home at the end of our day.
    Not long ago, I found what seemed to be the contents of somebodys wallet scattered around the neighbor. I walk the block, carrying my concealed weapon, as I always do and collected everything I could find. I returned home and called the local PD to turn it over to them, and hopefully have it returned to the owner.
    When the officers(none that I know personally) arrived I informed them that I am a CPL holder, I was carrying and although I called them to my home, and was not actually "stopped" I wanted to inform them. They had no problem at all, they genuinely approved of my decision to carry and had no problem with me carrying in their presence. If they had I would have simply come inside and disarmed until we were finished.
    I am not a LEO, I don't play one on TV, nor do I ever want that job. But I do know this much, they are people, just like any one of us here, they may have a quite different job, but at the end of the day they have the same goals as the rest of us. I don't do their job, I don't see some of the things they face, but I certainly respect them for what they do and I see no reason to do anything to make their job any more difficult than it already has a potential to be.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    You don't give up your rights, but if you are holding a gun when you invite the cops in there is too much room for misunderstanding and then and you may not be around to complain that your rights weren't protected.

    Have a little mercy on the poor guys who answer these kind of calls. What's so wrong with giving some cooperation?...

    ...This issue has nothing whatsoever to do with rights and a great deal to do with courtesy and with caution, and with being decent to the fellow or gal coming over to help out.

    Bold quote IS the Bottom Line... Well Stated!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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