August 8th, 2009 12:26 AM
Another What if Scenarios
This is the second or third time that the Walgreen's 1 mile away has been robbed. Suppose you are standing in line and the guy in front of you holds up the cashier. Your afraid to run because he may shoot you in the back and you are afraid that he is going to shoot you and the other patrons in the store.
If you could get a clean shot, would you since you are only 12 inches away from him ?
Do you hold still praying that he doesn't shoot you and the clerk ?
Do you try to make a run for it to the back of the store ?
"When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."
--Thomas Jefferson --
August 8th, 2009 12:38 AM
First step is to find a new Walgreens, why frequent a place that gets robbed frequently.
But ok, you had to go to this one for some reason, and its too late to change that choice. The BG would probably be amped up, and have tunnel vision, I'd definately try to get some distance and cover while he is distracted. This would allow you to:
1: Protect yourself and gain distance from the threat.
2: At dial 911 if possible, if you have to, just leave the line open.
3: Delineate your fields of fire to make sure that any possible over penetration concerns are negated. i.e., no risk to the teller from your own bullets if you shoot.
5: Look around for other BG's, wolves tend to travel in packs, and he may have buddies in the store.
4: If you determine that the life of you, or another law-abiding citizen in the store is facing an imminent lethal threat, engage your target, ending that threat, this is a last resort.
And hope the store has a good surveillance system that makes you look justified, and your state has a good defense doctrine in the laws.
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
August 8th, 2009 01:01 AM
I used to play pro paintball back in the day and we used to frequent Denny's at 4 am quite frequently...
One early morning after a late tourney I was waiting in line to pay and the guy ahead of me was in the process of starting to demant that the teller give him her money when he over dosed...it was kinda funny after the fact. I was contemplating whether to pull and shoot when the next second later I was keeping him from choking on his own tounge and spit!
Turns out he was out of money for another fix, had no money to pay the bill so he took the knife off the table, waited in line and... The poor waitress he tried to "rob" was balling like a baby (who can blame her) and she felt that he was really gonna stab her!
If it were me and I felt as thought the situation was dangerous I would retreat with my weapon drawn (distance being a friend and all) and I would shoot the second I felt it was to that threat level (most likely when my weapon was at the low ready position, because I draw to shoot unless during the time of draw the situation changes (and I have had that).
Pray for our nations leaders!
August 8th, 2009 02:07 AM
August 8th, 2009 04:16 AM
As long as that gun isn't ponted at me or mine, and no innocents are being hurt, I'm planning on acting like a meek and mild accountant.
I'm not an accountant, but I'm also not going to escalate a situation if it can be avoided. If he decides to shoot the clerk I will be too slow to respond in regards to saving the clerk. I will however be responding to save me and mine.
Sorry, but that's the way the ball bounces for me on that one.
August 8th, 2009 06:37 AM
Depends on the store. I have some good friends that work at a convenience store. Also depends on whether i feel like he is really going to shoot. My main priority is me though. My friends arent going to take care of my family if i get killed trying to save them.
August 9th, 2009 12:46 AM
I can't guess what I'd do. Maybe try to slip back away if there wasn't a line behind me and he was facing mostly away, maybe shoot him in defense of third party if there was a line behind me and he was standing sideways so he could see and hear me trying to get back.
Just don't know.
August 9th, 2009 02:21 AM
Not saying I'd do this but... 12" away? A contact shot at the proper angle could result in hair brains and teeth all over the ceiling!
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
August 9th, 2009 02:43 AM
Always think multiples!
How certain are you that the guy in front of you is by himself? Are we talking the cashier by the front doors or back at the pharmacy counter? What if we decide to make a "pre-emptive" strike and just shoot him with no warning (if perfectly legal in our jurisdiction) and then hear screams and gunfire from the other end of the store? Will you be able to sleep that night if it ends up with four dead and they announce that these were the guys from the previous hold ups where no one was injured?
Lots to think about.
It is a decision that each of us will have to make on our own should the circumstances ever arise, and we will then have to live with the consequences of our decision.
That being said, if he is calm and cool and it looks mellow, quietly create distance and go to ready position. If he was twitchy and I felt that he may very well injure or kill someone else either intentionally or by accident I may very well decide the safest course of action is to shoot to stop the threat.
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
August 9th, 2009 03:17 AM
Just because a robber or set of robbers has not killed before means nothing. Lots of criminals get their feet wet, and work themselves up to the ultimate thrill.
When robbers are there, with loaded weapons you have all the ingredients: Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy. The brandished weapon (even without a verbal threat) qualifies as manifest intent. Anybody dies, and the responsibility is on the criminals.
Maybe they won't kill anybody... this time.
Do you feel lucky?
I hate relying on a maybe like that, when I'm standing there with a gun in my holster.
I can shoot him in the back, or WAIT for him to take an interest in me, my wallet, (with my CCW) and the lump at my waist.
I can be really indifferent like Biker as to whether the cashier gets killed. Too bad for him. I'm just afraid that once one person is killed, the robber(s) is going to be so jacked up he shoots anybody nearby before he bugs out.
I REALLY would hate to be the second party joining a gunfight.
August 9th, 2009 04:30 AM
Thats the thing Travis, like you said, just because they didnt before doesnt mean they wont this time. Too many variables in what if scenarios. We could each come up with our own way to fill in the blanks where you are either a psychopath for shooting or a complete idiot for not shooting.
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
August 9th, 2009 04:52 AM
Well this is MY TAKE on it, the perp has a weapon and is brandishing it, so therefor I feel an iminent threat, Im not sure how many of you have ever had a weapon in your close proximity pointed at you, but its not a good feeling at all..
So if this fool is crazy enough to commit an armed robbery, what else will he do? You have got to think worse case sceniero if your 12" away, thats one BG thats not gonna be around tomorrow if im standing right there. Thats JMO.
August 9th, 2009 06:22 AM
It would have helped to know a few things about this scenario:
(1) What time of day is it?
(2) What state of mind is the BG in at the moment?
(3) Can you discretely reach your cell phone?
But, I'll work with the situation as you described it.
(1) Try DISCRETELY dialing 9-1-1 on your cell phone. BUT DON'T TALK!
(2) Try to slowly but discretely back away from the BG
(3) Be as good witness for the police by memorizing the appearance of the BG
Try to slowly remove yourself from the situation as best you can under the circumstances. That's what I would suggest with the limited facts of your scenario.
BTW, my worst robbery of the four armed robberies in which I was involved was the BG who was a drug addict (a junkie). This guy needed the money to get a "fix". He held a revolver with the middle of his index finger and NOT the end of the finger as we all normally do. The revolver was shaking like a leaf!!! I was worried that he would shot me by accident! That robbery gave me bad nightmares for a few weeks.
"Gun control is being able to hit your target."
August 9th, 2009 08:35 AM
Just an aside, always be aware that he may have an accomplice standing by. I choose to back out to cover while assessing who may be paying attention to you as you do it. Simply put, the sheep will be watching the gunman, a wolf or another sheepdog may take notice of your behavior.
If clear, I'm out a back exit and calling 911.
Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.
August 11th, 2009 03:19 AM
Wow... Ok, I am second in line at the counter and the dude directly in front of me pulls a gun on the clerk. He is apparently unconcerned with me standing behind him. (I find that unlikely, but that is the scenario)
With the caveat that you have to play it as you see it, one of two things will probably happen.
1) I'd play it exactly as BikerRN described it, or
2) I put my gun directly to the back of his head and without warning... put his lights out!
Again, I'd have to play it as the situation unfolded in front of me because it is such a fluid situation, there are going to be such a myriad of things happening lightning fast, I need all my senses to really decide how to proceed.
However, one primary reason I would opt for shooting him in the back of the head without warning is because it is reasonable to assume that at some point during the robbery he is going to be pointing his gun at me simply because I am only 12 inches away and to him, I am an unknown threat.
If he is so stupid as to ignore me when he pulls his gun and starts the robbery, it may be my only opportunity to capitalize on it and act to save my life first, and possibly the clerks as well.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
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