They keep coming

This is a discussion on They keep coming within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a hypothetical thing, for the most part. To preface, my father has a rental property that also serves as his brothers home. Half ...

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Thread: They keep coming

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array justherenow's Avatar
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    They keep coming

    This is a hypothetical thing, for the most part.

    To preface, my father has a rental property that also serves as his brothers home. Half of the property is rented, to at this time a good tenant. The other half (its a duplex) is where my uncle lives, and by contract, can live rent free until he dies (Long story, I wont go into the details), essentially my dad supports my uncle as well.

    There are alot of undesirables that comes in and out of my uncles, all either drunks or on drugs, and my dad, who is going to be 64 has to run them out on a weekly basis, sometimes with police assistance. For the most part, these guys are just loud but leave, but my dad keeps making the statement that he feels one of these days he will be stabbed or attacked dealing with these issues, and I try to go with him whenever I can to be of assistance. Also let it be known that due to a shoulder injury, my fathers left are is practically useless

    So onto the scenario.

    Say we are at the apartment, and we have to run out one of the undesirables, but this guy is just going crazy, the police are called and could be minutes away. The guy grabs a weapon, and starts for us (for sake of discussion, a knife or a baseball bat) . Knowing that the weapon could be used as a deadly device, and we are unable to get out of the place I draw and he drops the weapon, at which point, he keeps coming towards us. He is ordered several times to stop but refuses and advances farther, say within 10 feet or so. What do you do? The fear is that maybe this subject maybe advancing in an attempt to disarm and use your weapon for his gain.

    For another part of the discussion, say he is unarmed but comes as a threat. He is getting loud and maybe violent, at what point would it be justified in pulling a weapon?

    In both of these we have to assume that my father and myself are the only to capable of defending anyone, my uncle is only 100lbs and frail, both my father and I are both 5'8"-5'9", both around 230.

    In Ohio, self defense is allowable to defend yourself or another as long as the other would have had the right to defend themselves in the first place. We also have the castle doctrine, but in this case that would be null since that is not our residence.
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    Gen 4 Glock 32 .357sig and SW M&P 15/22
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  3. #2
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    The situation you described is why carrying a non-lethal alternative is a good idea. Once he drops the weapon deadly force is going to be difficult to defend. Not saying impossible, but difficult. If he possessed no weapon at all, drawing your weapon is going to be difficult to justify as well. The use of pepper spray instead of lethal force will show you did what you had to, to protect yourself and dad without using a gun.

    On a side note, you dad, being partially disabled might stand a better chance defending the use of lethal force in the scenario above.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array justherenow's Avatar
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    All points well taken. Thats the great thing about this site, getting all perspectives. I need to look into some less than lethal types of things to work with.
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    Another thing that is going to come into play is whether or not your uncle (legal resident) invited this guy inside. I don't know what agreement exists between your dad and uncle or your uncle's capacity, but look at it from the other guy's side. He is invited in. You and your dad arrive (he doesn't know you two) and order him out. He decides to defend his friend (uncle) and himself...

    Just something to keep in mind.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    Senior Member Array justherenow's Avatar
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    In this case, the guys all know that my uncle has no actual say in who can come in. Basically, they can visit, but they try to move in. Thats when we have to get them out. The guy they are having issues with, well, lets say he knows he is unwelcome to move in, yet everytime he gets out of jail, he moves right in.

    That is the case now, the guy is there, we are doing the legal steps to get him out. My dad makes daily visits there, he checks on the house, gives my uncle an "allowance" every day and such. My uncle does not work, has no income, he is alcohol dependent and is not really able to stand up for himself. This same guy that we are working on getting out now, has beat the crap out of my uncle in the past.
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    Senior Member Array justherenow's Avatar
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    Oh let me stress, I am in no way in power to do anything at this house, I just ride along to be a witness and to be there. I do not go with any purpose other than to ride along, but if the SHTF, I will protect my father if needed.

    We almost always use the police to get these guys out of there, and it normally works.
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    Gen 4 Glock 32 .357sig and SW M&P 15/22
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    Ah, got it.

    Any possibility of a "restraining" order against this guy? With the history of assault and having to have officers come out to remove him in the past, you should have enough cause to get one. Then he can be arrested any time he even shows up. Would definitely check into that.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    Senior Member Array justherenow's Avatar
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    We can only issue trespass warnings, but he has to be there when the police is there, and he normally runs before they arrive (this one specific that we are having issues with now). My dad is thinking of going to his P.O. and advising him that the guy is not wanted there and see if they can help.

    I keep using the word "we" because I am giving my dad as much info as possible. In the case of CHL, my dad is not and will not get a license even though he is able to. He is not an anti, but he does not feel the need. He knows I have a CHL, and when or if I am carrying, he has no clue.
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  10. #9
    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    As a former LEO, let me give you my perspective. When an incident is occuring, you need to call the police and they need to arrive before you get there. It is their job and responsibility to maintain order and deal with unruly subjects.
    Arriving at the scene and trying to handle it yourself is just asking for trouble. Eventually someone will be injured or killed. Up to now you have been lucky that one of your uncles friends hasn't pulled his own gun.
    If you arrive and the police still aren't there, wait in your car until they do. If one of these guys trys to attack you in your vehicle, he is the aggressor and you are justified. If you jump out of your car to confront him, that makes you the aggressor.
    It's time to charge this guy with trespassing, appearing drunk in public or disorderly conduct.
    "First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
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    Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
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    The less than lethal option is a great idea. I also think you should obtain an RO. It may only be a piece of paper, but it's a piece of paper that gives the police more opportunity to make an arrest. I also wonder how his PO would react if he had an RO out against him.

    As far as you being mostly an observer for your dad, you might consider taking a camera along. Some people are more likely to behave themselves if they know you are being taped. It's hard to argue with video evidence in court. On the other, the presense of camera could also have an opposite affect on a few people as well. Keep in mind if the tresspasser decides he's going to fight, you may have to drop the camera or use it as a weapon. Good luck.

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    As a former LEO, let me give you my perspective. When an incident is occuring, you need to call the police and they need to arrive before you get there. It is their job and responsibility to maintain order and deal with unruly subjects.
    Arriving at the scene and trying to handle it yourself is just asking for trouble. Eventually someone will be injured or killed. Up to now you have been lucky that one of your uncles friends hasn't pulled his own gun.
    If you arrive and the police still aren't there, wait in your car until they do. If one of these guys trys to attack you in your vehicle, he is the aggressor and you are justified. If you jump out of your car to confront him, that makes you the aggressor.
    It's time to charge this guy with trespassing, appearing drunk in public or disorderly conduct.
    Clarification requested....
    So lets say for sake of argument that his father(albeit foolishly, but none the less) has called the son for help rather than 911(lets say easy speed dial or something). Son hangs up and calls 911 and heads out. Son arrives, knowing full well dad is in danger, yet the police have NOT arrived yet. Do you still expect him to sit in the flippin car?
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    Member Array BrianSW99's Avatar
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    In regard to the first scenario where you've drawn on the guy because he had a weapon, but he's still advancing toward you even after dropping it, you cannot let him get close enough to you to be able to take the gun from you. I think it would be foolish to try and spray him with OC after already drawing on him. By the time you've drawn your OC and sprayed, he could already be on you taking your gun. Having been sprayed in the face by OC myself during training, it takes a moment for it to really set in and he could cover alot of ground during that time.

    Even unarmed, the guy knows you have a gun pointing at him and is still advancing toward you. You have to assume that he is crazy and/or intends to do you serious harm. This in itself could be justification of deadly force. I would give verbal commands to stop and possibly back away if feasible, but if he crosses the 20' mark I would fire.

    This of course is assuming you were justified in drawing your weapon in the first place. If not, all bets are off.

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array justherenow's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback everyone.

    Normally when we go, we do not know if anyone is there or who will be there at any given time. The trip is made at random daily, basically due to having a life and other things to do, so calling the police is not always an option. Discussed getting a RO, but they wont issue one due to no criminal charges. My uncle refused to prosecute for the assault that happened, the subject is on probation for other reasons.

    I am going to look at less than lethal next payday, either OC or a civilian model of the Taser.
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    Gen 4 Glock 32 .357sig and SW M&P 15/22
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    Those who trade liberty for security have neither. ~John Adams

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    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Is it at all possible to get a security system in place, with video feedback available on your web browser? A simple system would work, if broadband is available in your uncle's area. That would save you a lot of fruitless trips and enable you to catch any unwanted "tenant" on the premises. Even a NANNYCAM.

  16. #15
    Member Array mosouthpaw's Avatar
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    consult with an attorney on the issue that if your father had a power of attorney/ legal guardian for your uncle. This might allow you to be able to file more charges against this scum bag and take on this scum bag in a better legal authority.

    just an idea but its going to take a lot of work to get this leach out of your rental.

    a basic alarm that allows you to hit a panic button on a remote might help your father if he had to go alone or you get disabled from this crazy mooch.

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