Angle of Shot
This is a discussion on Angle of Shot within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As I read through the various scenarios here I am struck by a thought.
How many, when they are thinking of their response to a ...
September 11th, 2009 03:49 PM
Angle of Shot
As I read through the various scenarios here I am struck by a thought.
How many, when they are thinking of their response to a given scenario, are considering the trajectory of the bullet they luanch and the backstop?
While most of us probably train on a square range, with frontal aspect targets, do you really think that the badguy or gal is going to stand nice and still for you and offer you a full frontal target? What about other people in the immediate area? Are they going to impede your response? I know we are all "crack" shots here, but what if we do miss one? Where is that bullet going to end up?
Are you going to have to shoot through some concealment, or other barriers, to be able to put bullets on target? What about the angle? In a crowd is luanching a straight angled bullet what you really want to do? I have often considered going prone or high, depending upon the closeness of the aggressor, because of where I find myself to be.
I seem to recall an old safety rule about "Know Your Target and what is beyond it." Granted, there is no "perfect" self defense situation, and if we knew we were going to get into a gunfight most of us wouldn't bring a handgun if given a choice, and have at least a handful of brain cells. I am now delving into the target and the surrounding area, as this needs to be a consideration as well.
Just some "food for thought". I am interested in people's responses to this and await your replies. Take care and stay safe.
September 11th, 2009 04:26 PM
Unfortunately most of us can only practice on a standard range with rules that prohibit a lot of actions we would like to become more proficient in. We can only do the best we can with the equipment available to us. Even if you are fortunate enough and wealthy enough to take some advance training course it is usually a one time thing and without practice it wears off quickly. One thing I practice, WITH AN UNLOADED GUN, is drawing my weapon. Trying to build muscle memory not become a quick draw artist. What is beyond your target is always something to try and take into consideration with any action you engage in.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
September 11th, 2009 04:30 PM
I personally have never fired my weapon at anyone in SD, but I have thought about my line of fire, and my relative position to it, if I had to use my weapon. I've practiced home invasion scenarios at my house and located several locations on both floors, where I should immediately go for solid cover and where I should be able to fire at the BG, (provided he cooperates with my drill) that should provide a adequate back stop. Anything more I feel will go out the window when the poop hits the fan.
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." ó Thomas Jefferson
September 11th, 2009 05:07 PM
I'm able to shoot in the desert, so the range rules get thrown out the window,. (but we do things safely for sure)... We do set up scenario targets complete with BG - GG / hostages,.. We also practice defensive with say a possible shot arm,.. (shooters arm Right/left),.. Firing and running out and reloading that way too,.. We also do night training/practicing with dusk = no lights,.. and dark = with tact lights,.. Of course practicing at home is something everyone should be doing,..
I have thought about the possible "background" issue before, but I'm not sure unless it is your stomping grounds (house/work/church) that you can think very deep in that?? I've thought about the possibility of getting low, so your shot is upward just a little could make the difference in hitting someone or not,.. I'm interested in what others have to say about this too..
September 11th, 2009 05:32 PM
Know Your Target and What is Beyond! There are tooooo many unknowns in your scenario to answer logically. So, with that being said, let's take it in the various unknowns and try to answer. IF I am attacked by BG, then I am MOVING and seeking cover. The wisest thing would be to attempt to egress the area while calling 911 rather than engaging. If I have to engage, and have an opportunity to return a shot, without endangering innocent bystanders, and it was absolutely necessary, then I would do so. Bystanders will/should always affect your choices. Hopefully my initial movement would afford me that opportunity if it came down to engaging. It would depend upon my surroundings, my cover/concealment, bystanders, and the adrenaline flow, as to the angle of shot that I felt comfortable in taking. With bystanders in the area, at ground level, the best angle would be from a lower firing position (i.e. crouched, kneeling, prone, etc.) to reduce possibility of hitting an innocent or if forced to move "up" the stairs/escalator/etc, then shooting "down" would be a choice. Again, if all this movement is available, then I am egressing not engaging. If pursued and pinned, or defending a loved one, I will engage. If pursued by the BG, then he will dictate the type of shot that I take based on his movements. The only time I will take a shot is if I know or feel that the BG's concealment will afford me the opportunity to take him out. I will not attempt a shot if his cover protects him. Cover vs. concealment! Cover protects, concealment hides with minimal protection. Each and every situation will present decisions that need to be made instantaneously. Hopefully each of us will make the right decisions.
Originally Posted by BikerRN
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
September 11th, 2009 05:40 PM
Actually, I have thought about this quite a lot.
Because I am concerned about what could happen in church, I have thought about it there.
I have also thought about it when out on the street, knowing that people could likely be down the street, behind a BG, or, of course, behind a wall in a house, condo, etc.
Many of those are no-win situations, as round will go somewhere where others could be harmed.
Dang having to play by the rules, when the BGs can do whatever the heck they want!
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
September 11th, 2009 06:02 PM
I can say, I do a hell of a lot more strategizing, analyzing and studying tactics than I do sending bullets down range.
Always in the front of my mind is that as an honest and lawful citizen, I am incumbent, both morally and legally to make sure all my shots are on target and do not destroy any innocent bystanders.
I am also very much aware that as a law abiding citizen, we really have to wait until a lethal threat is present before we whip out our smoke wagons and go to work.
So for those reasons alone, typically we are already starting to respond from a position behind the curve and are essentially trying to play catch up! That sucks big time, but we know that we are going to be held accountable for any wrong or reckless actions. Knowing that the bad guys don't play by any set of rules and could care less where their errant rounds go, this paints a pretty grim picture at the thought of using lethal force attempting to defend yourself.
That's why, a lot of people just don't feel a gun is for them. And Hey, I'd rather they realize the responsibility and decide it isn't for them, and I have a lot more respect for those types than I have for some "yahoo sheepdog wannabe" running around with an itchy trigger finger waiting for the first opportunity to start blasting away at the bad guys!
So, with that said... It doesn't mean we good guys can't be pro-active to a point in dealing with a lethal encounter.
The more knowledge, training and tactics you possess allows you to have the critical thinking skills necessary to meet a threat head on and deal with it in an appropriate way which will also be legally and morally acceptable.
First, it is incumbent upon you to be better trained and have a better understanding of the dynamics of the judicious use of lethal force and deadly force scenarios than your adversary has.
You have to be able to capitalize on your superior knowledge of proper use of cover and concealment, principles of movement and the ability to get off the axis or whatever you want to call it. You have to be able to develop your situational awareness so you have the ability to avoid potential problems in the first place. You should learn to be able to read the "language of the street" and learn to recognize, pre-assault cues, recognize being "interviewed" and develop ways to discourage being targeted before it happens.
Of very high and critical importance, (and sadly way too many people do not know or even heard of this) is the understanding of physio-psychological aspects of violent encounters and understanding the natural phenomenon which occurs inside the body in response to being suddenly thrust into the middle of a lethal confrontation. You have to be able to understand the utter effects tunnel vision plays a role in many deadly encounters. During the heat of the moment and in the midst of a experiencing tunnel vision, you likely won't be able to see what's going on behind your target and if there is a safe backstop or not!
If you understand this and make adjustments for this going in, you can start to develop the skill of as soon as something gets your attention causing you to bump your level of alertness, you also at the same time start scan the area behind the threat for safe backstops or if there's innocent people around.
For example, say I'm walking down the sidewalk late in the evening returning to my car from eating in a restaurant. As soon as I spot a group of people loitering against a parked car half a block down the the road... I start to evaluate their potential for being a threat. What are they doing? Are they going to try and interview me as I walk by? Are they sizing me up? Do I change course and cross the street or return from where I started? and I am also scanning the area for what's beyond them in case it comes to shooting them.
There is a lot of information to process, and if you study tactics, gunfight dynamics, lethal encounters, and a whole host of other things, you learn what to process and what not to. You know what clues to look for so you know what to avoid. And more importantly, you've already Identified safe backstops and what's around your potential bullet catcher so when the full body alarm mode strike, and you go to condition red and the tunnel vision hits you as you focus in on the threat, you have already taken care of all those secondary, but no less important safety issues.
I hope this isn't convoluted and you can see the point I'm trying to make. Sometimes trying to convey in words what you think in your head is a little difficult to translate.
Bottom line... Bad guys don't play by the rules and don't give a squat who gets hit with their bullets. Good guys do care about that and are incumbent to do so in the eyes of the law and lawyers for the plaintiff in the follow on civil injury suit.
So the more you know, the better you stand so you can be just as pro-active as possible and are not trying to play catch-up from a position behind the curve.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
September 11th, 2009 06:41 PM
The IDPA setup is probably more appropriate for training in regards to shooting with obstacles as well as innocent civilians in the way.
However, the best environment I have found is the warfare simulator at work. I have tried it a few times. Its mainly a VR simulation room and it puts you in a real-time simulation of a city, an airplane, a hotel, etc in a hostile situation.
Of course this is more of a gaming environment, but it does train you to sharpen your instincts in different scenarios.
I am trying to see if there is a less expensive way to get something similar at home.
Aerospace Designer, Freemason, NRA member
September 11th, 2009 07:15 PM
The city's insurance company brought a training simulator for the police to use once or twice a year. It seemed very realistic to me. I do not know if these types of simulators are available for general public use. It took a lot of room to set up. The policemen hated it because one of the policewomen regularly out performed everyone. A lot of the scenes concerned responding to keep the officer safe and to prevent civilian casualties.
September 11th, 2009 07:53 PM
Unfortunately if you are in an area that you are not totally familiar with - you may never know what is exactly where behind that privacy fence across the street or what is hidden from view on the other side of a stand of brush and trees or if Grandma is standing right behind the bed-sheet that is hanging on the clothes line.
Some things you just cannot know in advance if you only have seconds or fractions of seconds to react to save your life.
It's just a reality of life and the way it is. We were not born with X-Ray Vision.
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