Scary situation - Had to draw today

This is a discussion on Scary situation - Had to draw today within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by dukalmighty I would suggest in the future you meet potential threats no matter how innocent outside the vehicle not sitting down,had he ...

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Thread: Scary situation - Had to draw today

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I would suggest in the future you meet potential threats no matter how innocent outside the vehicle not sitting down,had he been armed with a knife you didn't see, he coulda had you sliced and diced before you could have drawn.
    Seems like in most cases (not all), you would be better off staying in your vehicle as it makes one hell of a good projectile. Secondly, meeting a potential threat outside of your vehicle could be construed by some liberal prosecutor as an aggressive act (like in a road rage incident). Staying in your vehicle you can at least make the argument that you were purely defensive, getting out tells the aggressor that "It's on".
    I agree, if someone gets up in your side window while you're sitting down it's going to start badly for you. This is kind of a tough call.
    Last edited by Rotorblade; September 16th, 2009 at 08:27 AM. Reason: typo

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I would suggest in the future you meet potential threats no matter how innocent outside the vehicle not sitting down,had he been armed with a knife you didn't see, he coulda had you sliced and diced before you could have drawn.
    Glad it turned out OK , but that's what I was thinking.

    I would have drawn with my gun in my lap when he exited the car and he would have seen it when he attempted to open my door.
    He didn't need a knife... a grip on your collar and a ballpoint pen can ruin your day.
    You made it home and that's really all that matters.
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Seems like in most cases (not all), you would be better off staying in your vehicle as it makes one hell of a good projectile.
    Yeah. Though, it's not too many years ago when one could safely and reasonably get out of the car to exchange insurance info and to mutually check out the damage, without risk of murder. Those days are history, sadly.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    This is a very interesting thread. Let's say after the BG spouted off his mouth he took a step forward and the OP shot him dead.

    I'm thinking that he could have possibly been charged because the BG was un-armed. The key question is did the guy have the ability to kill the OP with his bare hands? That is probably very debatable in this case. Simply brandishing to de-escalate was probably the right thing to do.

    Any lawyers out there to chime in?
    The question would be did he have the ability to take the weapon away from the OP.
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  6. #20
    Member Array Major G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    ...I'm thinking that he could have possibly been charged because the BG was un-armed. The key question is did the guy have the ability to kill the OP with his bare hands? That is probably very debatable in this case....
    Not a lawyer, but I have been in a similar situation. It is all about articulation. Can you articulate that you believed your (or someone else's) life to be in danger, and that eliminating the threat permanently was your only way to survive? I can't say for sure because I wasn't there, but I think in this case, yes. From the way this BG was described, paired with the OP being at a position of disadvantage, I believe deadly force was his only option if the situation had progressed further. You have to remember that just because the BG is not (visibly) armed, does not mean that he will not take away your weapon and use it on you.

    Had the situation been different, say the OP had pepper spray in one hand, and a gun in the other, the lines would have been a bit sketchier. But I believe this case is a pretty cut and dried example of self defense.

    At any rate good job Mustang, you lived to ride another day. I believe you reacted just as you should have, and probably better than many would have.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    Let's say after the BG spouted off his mouth he took a step forward and the OP shot him dead.

    I'm thinking that he could have possibly been charged because the BG was un-armed. The key question is did the guy have the ability to kill the OP with his bare hands? That is probably very debatable in this case. Simply brandishing to de-escalate was probably the right thing to do.
    The actions performed were, IMO, the right thing to do, yes. And, yes, probably a DA could see his/her way toward easily charging a person based on silliness like "no weapon" and other considerations.

    Reality was, if the facts presented are truthful, that he was almost ripped from a vehicle, that he was scoffed at when he presented the firearm and confronted with the obvious implicit threat that since the felon had been imprisoned for murder he'd have no troubles doing it again, now.

    The totality of circumstances are at that point where one can live or die. All it would take for MOST folks to agree, I think, would be any further threatening action on the part of the felon. I, too, would almost certainly have stopped at the drawing-down on the felon, if at that moment he backed up and showed reduced ability to get at me, disarm me, likely kill me (and complete his stated/threatened actions).

    Where's BikerRN when you need him?

    I agree with the OP's actions. I also agree the moment had arrived when drawing-down the threat was the correct thing to do. I also agree that doing nothing further so long as the felon continues to eject from the situation was also the correct thing to do. It's just that, in my situation of not being able to defend very long (physically), my crossover point to disallowing further violent handling of me is probably a bit lower than some would otherwise have, in their situations. But that's as it should be, given variations in ability to withstand beatings, physical prowess, age, being disabled/fit, etc.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  8. #22
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    This is a very interesting thread. Let's say after the BG spouted off his mouth he took a step forward and the OP shot him dead.

    I'm thinking that he could have possibly been charged because the BG was un-armed. The key question is did the guy have the ability to kill the OP with his bare hands? That is probably very debatable in this case. Simply brandishing to de-escalate was probably the right thing to do.

    Any lawyers out there to chime in?

    IANAL, but I agree with Cycler. You have no way of knowing that anythiing this thug said was true. You should have stayed in the car with the windows rolled up.

    If you had shot this dude dead, what would you have to show for it? A rumpled shirt collar and your claiim that he threatened you and told you he was a convicted murderer? The DA could have had a field day with this scenario.

    The media would have written it up that a trigger-happy concealed carrier blew away an unarmed man over a traffic quarrel or fender bender.

    Lucky for you and all of us no one was killed. Did you tell the sheriff you drew down on this guy?

  9. #23
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    Good Post.

    It shows how quickly bad things can happen and what can and does go through ones mind when it does.

    No matter how "ready" one may think they are at all times, they are never really as ready as they think are when it happens.

    This post shows how some thugs think. They do not think like a normal person, because they aren't normal. They simply do not care about anything. They don't care about you, they don't even care about themselves. People like this are absolutely dangerous and often deadly force it exactly what it takes to get the point across, they understand nothing less than that.

    I am glad the the outcome was successful. I am glad that you did not get hurt.
    The only unfortunate thing is that Mr. Skinhead will harrass someone else that may not be as prepared.
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  10. #24
    Senior Member Array chrise2004's Avatar
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    I'm glad your ok first and foremost.

    But....pshewwww i was on edge reading that story the whole time. I think you did great, sometimes there isn't anything you can do to stop a nut case. Stay Safe.
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    I got to about 2 miles before where I usually do my shotgunning and there was a Ford Bronco going about 5 mph in the middle of the road. I go up shooting in the area about once a week and it's pretty commonly understood that if there's someone behind you who wants to go a little faster, you pull to the side and let them go by. I came up behind the bronco and pulled to the left a little to show that I wanted to pass and then pulled back to following distance. He kept just going slow and not moving over. After a minute I'd pull over to the left and get a little closer to him so he could see me clearly and hopefully speed up a little or pull over to let me pass.

    Never been in your state and do not know your state law however this fellow does nor seem as tho he will stop. If he is newly released from prison and has killed before and was not backing down from your weapon it seems very possible that he will see this as a matter of twisted perverted honor. It is very possible he will seek to recoup his loss sense of strength and personal courage. All that said be careful and be on guard. If you have second car use it for a while and park the truck out of sight as that is what he will be looking for. Remember wolfs travel in packs. All that said I believe you did the right thing on the mountain road and that you will do the right thing in the days to come. For all the talk about ending someones life, that event will alter your life and be a issue that will never go away. I will be praying for you.

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array tiwee's Avatar
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    I am glad you are safe. Thanks for sharing this. Your story makes me think. My little contribution has to do with information on the other vehicle.

    I have a little notebook and pencil in the car. I jot down license numbers of vehicles that are out of place in our hollar or vehicles that do something stupid while moving. When I get to a safe place, I add time and date and vehicle description to the note. Probably happens five or six times a year max.

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    I'm thinking that he could have possibly been charged because the BG was un-armed. The key question is did the guy have the ability to kill the OP with his bare hands?
    The big problem here is lack of witnesses, but let's say that a shot is fired and it ends up in court and the basic facts as relayed are not in doubt.

    The defense is this: the self-proclaimed murdered advanced on a drawn gun. At this point, violent scumbag was conveying his belief that he could get the gun away from the OP. That is, in a very real sense, the bad guy was reaching for a weapon. That is a legally justifiable shoot.

    The analogous case is an apparently unarmed burglar who gets held at gunpoint. If he turns and runs, he is no longer a threat. If he stays still he is no longer a threat. If he advances on the homeowner, however, he is conveying a lethal threat because he is moving to take the owner's weapon away. Same situation.

    It all comes down to the reasonable man argument:

    Lawyer: "Sir, did you really believe that unarmed man was a threat to you, sitting there holding a gun?"

    Defendant: "Counselor, what I believe is irrelevant. He believed that he could prevail anyway, and I had no reason to doubt his self-confidence."
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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiwee View Post
    I have a little notebook and pencil in the car. I jot down license numbers of vehicles that are out of place in our hollar or vehicles that do something stupid while moving.
    I do the same thing, as well, though my standards are (a) seriously out of place, or (b) do something dangerous.

    In one instance, even, that person/car turned up in a later situation and I recognized it as the car whose driver was behaving erratically earlier. It might never be useful evidence or information, but you never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by kazzaerexys View Post
    It all comes down to the reasonable man argument:

    Lawyer: "Sir, did you really believe that unarmed man was a threat to you, sitting there holding a gun?"

    Defendant: "Counselor, what I believe is irrelevant. He believed that he could prevail anyway, and I had no reason to doubt his self-confidence."
    It does come down to the "reasonable" man. Witnesses surely can help, since they can record verbal statements and corroborate physical actions and the sequence of events. But, the standard is basically: were you threatened to the degree you felt you had no choice but to act as you did, and were your actions reasonable in the circumstances? Doesn't much matter that you couldn't see a man-made weapon in his hands. What matters is that he'd just proven he wanted to rip you from your car; almost succeeded; threatened you with death; then, in response to being requested to stop his attack at gunpoint, scoffed and all but suggested he'd murder you just as he did the poor sod for whom he'd just spent 12yrs in prison.

    "Your Honor, Madam District Attorney, and members of the Grand Jury: I had no reason to doubt he could do everything he said he would, particularly since I had direct proof of his strength, anger, claimed past murderous actions, and I had his stated intention of murdering me."

    Quote Originally Posted by searcher 45 View Post
    For all the talk about ending someones life, that event will alter your life and be a issue that will never go away. I will be praying for you.
    We are speaking of the same actions, sure. However, it seems to me that "all the talk" is about saving a life. It's the difference between seeing a defensive sidearm as a "weapon" or a "life-saving tool." Minor point in perspective, perhaps, but IMO it makes all the difference in the world.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #29
    Member Array cz2075bd's Avatar
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    Wow. What a relief you are ok. Certainly hindsight is 20/20, monday morning quarterbacking and all that, but you did great. Being armed probably saved your life.

    I always appreciate a new "I had to draw my gun today" thread where the OP ain't kiddin!

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Rcher's Avatar
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    In this situation, the tables could have been turned. The BG calls 911, claims a lunatic with a gun tried to run him off the road and he had to block the road to keep from going over the cliff. The BG stopped as the guy in a Toyota wanted him to pull over. The guy in the beat up Toyota pulled a gun on the BG and threatened to kill him. He could claim road rage. You get my point ...

    Unfortunately, BG's have as many rights as the rest of us and obviously, their story is one sided. It's good that the OP was the first to get back into cell range and call 911 first. Kudos for returning to town.

    I think sometimes, "He who reports first wins". Thats why we always say here, if you pull your weapon on somebody, make sure you report it first so you arent labeled as the aggressor.
    "Government is not the solution to our problem; government IS the problem". - Ronald Reagan 1981

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