Scary situation - Had to draw today
This is a discussion on Scary situation - Had to draw today within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey man glad you are safe, I am sure that was a very hard choice to make, but I think you did right in the ...
September 16th, 2009 09:04 PM
Hey man glad you are safe, I am sure that was a very hard choice to make, but I think you did right in the end, except for maybe letting him get to close. Like I said you got out safe and that is what counts. What if anything did the LEO say about pulling your weapon, did he give you a hard time, or ask to see your weapon? Just curious.
September 16th, 2009 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Patti
Likely, when he did so while simultaneously stating he's going to "#%*&$^)*&@#$!" then it went beyond mere assault. In Oregon, the distinction is the hands-on condition, IIRC. Threat = assault; hands-on action based on that threat = battery. Though, many places simply have statues covering Assault through Aggravated Assault, with degrees.
If that's what an attacker finds necessary in order to stop, then it's the required degree of force.
I'm not saying you should have shot him, but if someone put their hands around my neck and tried to yank me out of my car, he's going to be met with fierce resistance.
It's so random and variable, that. Better to be lily-white in all of it, assuming time allows. We all know the drill. Have witnesses; have those witnesses see AND hear you loudly resist and indicate you do NOT want to be attacked; be SEEN to resist or attempt to withdraw. At that point, you've done about all you can do.
I may be wrong, but I don't think a prosecutor would charge me.
In a car, you've got 3500 lbs of steel around you, helping to force the attack to come from that one direction, along with lots of things to grab onto. Lots of leverage for an all-out Red Wing assault (aka, free facial via your footwear), all the while attempting to get to your firearm in order to make it crystal clear that the next step taken will be one of three choices: prison, hospital or morgue. It's not me. The choice remains with the attacker, via the actions I see.
I don't think a prosecutor who wants reelection will prosecute defense against such an attack, either.
September 17th, 2009 01:35 AM
September 17th, 2009 01:54 AM
The LEO didn't even ask to see my permit, he did ask about what gun I was carrying but didn't ask to see it or where it currently was located. Very positive LEO encounter and he was very helpful, it was just annoying it took so long and had to be transferred but what can you do.
I was carrying IWB holster at probably 1 o'clock? That's where it usually sits unless i'm wearing a suit, then it's at about 5 o'clock IWB.
To tell you the truth I don't know really what a cross draw is, i'm guessing it's one that if you're right handed it would be on your left side and you're drawing across your body? If that is the case then I don't think that would have been as helpful as how i had it because I was already leaning so far to the right with him coming in on top of me it would have been a longer reach.
i sort of reenacted the situation in my truck today to get a feel for what happened and see what i could improve on if it happened again. this time the gun was much harder to get out with my seat belt on and i should probably practice that a little more, luckily when it counted it came right out though. I learned I need to lock the door each time I get in.
Most cars have that auto lock feature if you get over like 20 mph but i have manual windows/locks and just need to make the habit of locking it as soon as it closes.
Also, I noticed how I was still holding onto the right side of the steering wheel with my left hand and I drew with my right and the gun came up under my left hand, so that actually worked as a sort of shield to keep him from grabbing at it easier. I didn't do that on purpose mind you, just glad it worked out how it did and noticed that today as i reenacted it.
Again, I don't think it would have mattered if there were witnesses or not had I had to shoot him, referencing my last post, I was the one with the ripped shirt, his fingerprints all over my door and door handle and the proximity of the shot and trajectory angles and things. If it did kill him he'd be dead right outside my car and I imagine my car and myself would have some mess on it enough to show it was a very close proximity. maybe I watch too many TV shows though about that kind of CSI stuff. and again you never know.
to tell you the truth I don't know if i thought there was a chance about being prosecuted for what i did until after i got home. My only concern once he was in my car really was what to do to get him out and away from me and thinking if i'd have to kill this guy.
Thanks again to everyone for support, it's nice to hear from like-minded individuals and just kind of write it down and get it all out. Hopefully some people can learn something from what happened to me and that's why I wanted to post this experience.
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
September 17th, 2009 02:12 AM
Cross-draw holster: description @ CorneredCat.
Originally Posted by mustang00066
Yes, you do. It can make all the difference. My door-closing routine consists of: sitting down; closing the door; locking the door; double-checking to visually confirm the door-lock has gone down. The added step takes only a second. I've had two attempted car-jackings committed against me. Both failed due to the doors being locked. On only one of them, I sort of saw it coming, while the other one came from nowhere and would have gotten me had I not had the doors locked.
Originally Posted by mustang00066
September 17th, 2009 01:51 PM
Thanks so much for sharing your story, and I'm glad you're physically ok. I know the mental impact can last a long time, but it really looks like you're handling it by learning from the experience.
I admire your restraint, as I believe you would have been legally justified in shooting him as he had means (ripped shirt and likely marks on your neck indicating this) and intent (his statements and continued aggressiveness despite being confronted with a deadly threat), but the impact on your life would have been far greater than at the current moment.
Watch your back, especially if you head up that way again. Bring all your friends with guns and all that :)
September 17th, 2009 02:22 PM
I am glad it worked out the way it did. Looking back nobody was physically hurt and that is always a good thing.
The "is this really happening" feeling can mess with you. What felt like minutes are only seconds. You have to decide if it is really happening, does it deserve a forceful response and can you do it.
We think about this stuff all the time but if or when it does happen sometimes all our thinking might of been part of the problem.
As far as I am concerned the second he opened that door and grabbed you, you were in a life threatening situation. You would of been in your rights to use force.
We always say here, if you pull it you use it. Again since we know the outcome we accept that you did not use it and again that is a good thing.
This seems like a good case for mace or pepper spray. Since the road rage was not armed for you it would of been better to spray the guy then shoot him. I do not care about him since he chose his path but you would of had to live with your choice.
Something to think about. If I am repeating other posts, it is just that I did not read all of them.
I am glad you are OK. The world is a better place with you in it. :)
September 17th, 2009 03:53 PM
This needs to be explored. He was choking you and ripping your shirt. You were leaned over in your truck. You 'pointed' your gun at him. Granted it was under your left arm, and you were in a tight spot, but I think the very real threat of a gun grab may have influenced me to shoot, if I wasn't already.
Originally Posted by cdwolf
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
September 17th, 2009 05:03 PM
Again, really glad things worked out for you.
I agree wholeheartedly about locking the car doors every time. When I was 6, or so, I was in the car with my mom leaving our church/school and we stopped at a corner about a block from the church. This was a medium sized intersection on the main street through our town in Northern CA. There was a group of rough looking men on the corner and one of them asked my mom through the closed car window for a ride. She declined, and he tried to open my door. The light changed right then fortunately and we turned (I think, maybe she just ran the light). She said "that's why we ALWAYS lock the doors." I'll never forget it.
September 17th, 2009 06:23 PM
Two things, glad you are alright and thanks for telling the whole story to all of us so we can be better prepared for a similar attack.
I do not know your age and physical well being but mine is not very good and I am a few months short of 65. Those facts would have probably changed my reactions to something different than yours. We are always walking a tightrope between a deadly response and spending a lot of money on lawyers as well as having to live with our actions. Neither of those are pleasant facts but you will be alive and that is what counts. I especially liked the witness stand reply that by his words and demeanor he was convinced that he could still attack you even when faced by a gun. Some folks are just nuts I guess. We all need to remember that the bad guys are not rational or they would not be BG's.
September 17th, 2009 06:44 PM
"I know I would have been well within my rights to shoot this guy when he was reaching in through my car door at me"
you've got to be KIDDING ME.
If you shot that guy, under the circumstances you just told us, ANY district attorney would have charged you with ATLEAST involuntary manslaughter. I wouldnt be suprised if it went straight to 3rd degree.
Try not driving like a jerk then pulling your gun in someones face next time pal. You've got to be kidding me.
"everyone roun' these here parts knows when someones drivin up yer butt it means yer s'pposed to pull over n let'em pass"
Maybe the guy WASNT A LOCAL.
If I was a DA and you shot him I'd throw the book at you so hard you wouldn't wake up till you're 5th year in state prison.
September 17th, 2009 06:58 PM
I'm sure that part of this is what authors like Ayoob write about - that in a lethal force encounter when the adreniline starts pumping strength goes through the roof and dexderity goes down the toilett. It probably hung up a little at the time, but you just forced it out and didn't notice.
Originally Posted by mustang00066
September 17th, 2009 07:05 PM
So, you don't see where the Ex-con was out of line at all, eh? That is scary on it's surface.
Originally Posted by Jcabin
I believe the OP stated that he was at fault in causing the fender bender, but does that give the offended driver "carte blanche" to physically assault and pummel him all the time threatening to kill him and then announce he's spent 12 years in prison for a prior killing?
Dude, get a grip! Yes, he was at fault in causing a fender bender... but that in no way can legally be used a catalyst to be considered in he escalated the situation to provoke what could have been a lawful use in lethal force.
If I'm at a baseball game and because of the crowd I accidentally bump into a guy and cause him to spill his $7 beer all over himself and he flies into a fit of rage and starts beating me to a pulp and threatening to kill me as he beats me, then I'm going to go to prison if I defend myself because I bumped into him in the first place?
That is ridiculous on it's surface. There was no crime committed to justify the reaction of the ex-con in this case. There was no reason for him to explode the way he did.
He came a heartbeat away from being shot righteously, and he was smart enough at the last moment to back down before he got shot.
He was the one way out of control and almost paid the ultimate price for it.
I wouldn't be so sure the OP would have been prosecuted. And equally not certain that if he were, that he would be convicted.
Since the offender stated freely, he had done 12 years in prison for a homicide, that would have been able to be used by the defender in court in his decision making process as to whether the man created a viable threat to his life.
Had the bad guy not admitted his prior criminal background and it came out afterwards.... that evidence would not be allowed in court because the defender hand no knowledge of it at the time.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
September 17th, 2009 07:23 PM
A fist fight is not a reason to blow holes through someones face.
ETA: No I dont think a car accident means someone should be beaten. I think the OP was driving like a jerk and could have avoided the situation all together if he wasnt.
Nobody deserves to get beat for an accident, but there is a difference between that and asking for it.
I wouldn't, and I'm sure you wouldnt beat someone for getting in an accident with, but obviously there are people out there who would, we know that, and this reinforces it.
September 17th, 2009 07:32 PM
One punch can kill, and this has been documented many times.
Originally Posted by Jcabin
No, I'm not going to provide links for you. Such documentation is easy to find if one is willing to search.
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