Scary situation - Had to draw today

This is a discussion on Scary situation - Had to draw today within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Jcabin A fist fight is not a reason to blow holes through someones face. I'm all for that! No doubt about it! ...

Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 129

Thread: Scary situation - Had to draw today

  1. #61
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,916
    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    A fist fight is not a reason to blow holes through someones face.

    I'm all for that! No doubt about it! A post regarding that all the time.

    However, there are situations where it does become an unfair fight where lethal force may end up being justified.

    For example if someone is trying to choke you into unconsciousness. He may be unarmed, but choking a person into unconsciousness can likely be considered to be deadly force in which responding with lethal force is justified.

    A man continues to stomp you into the ground and kick you into oblivion where you are no longer able to effectively defend yourself or escape becomes a disparity of force situation where deadly force may be justified in using where it clearly wasn't earlier.

    When a man admits to doing 12 years in prison for killing a man, and who moments ago tried to rip your head off, and then boasts that he's going to shove your gun up your arse is a threat which justifies a deadly force response for the following reason.

    He has just in effect, stated that he believes he is capable of disarming you and killing you! At that point... You have to take him at his word! And honestly, after seeing several hours of closed circuit prison video of convicts training on how to disarm LEO's out in the prison yard and in secluded area's of the prison. I am going to believe a guy when he says that.

    Now in this case, given the remote location and lack of witnesses, it probably turned out for the best that the OP held his shot and also for the guy to back down.

    But remote location aside, and lack of witnesses or not, had the guy approached me again after informing me what he intended to do with my gun, I would have shot him!

    Again, I've had the benefit of actually seeing closed circuit video of convicts training to disarm people in prison... as such, I can use that information as part of my defense. I know for a fact, by his own admission that he believes he can over power me and disarm me he is going to get shot.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #62
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,132
    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    A fist fight is not a reason to blow holes through someones face.
    Sure. But having someone violently attempt to rip you from your car while claiming he's going to beat you or kill you is certainly sufficient cause to refuse that with the degree of force you believe is required to stop it.

    As a free citizen, we each are justified in putting up that degree of force we reasonably believe is required, at the moment, in order to stop the assault from escalating to death or crippling damage.

    If you don't believe this, please check your state's self-defense, use-of-force and lethal-force statutes to better understand what you are actually able to do in terms of resisting a dire threat. In the state of Oregon, my statutes confirm I have every right to make that call myself, based on the circumstances; though, I'll need to justify them later as "reasonable," sure. Very likely, perhaps even almost certainly, your state's statutes also support similar actions on your part as a free citizen living in a free state who is being attacked violently by someone making threats you believe he's absolutely capable of fulfilling.

    ETA: No I dont think a car accident means someone should be beaten.
    Good. Because (if the facts presented are the true facts that occurred) the escalation and threat was provided by the felon attacker, the threats made to beat/kill were made by the attacker, and the near attempt to physically yank the victim from the vehicle were made by the attacker. The resistance of this was the sole action by the victim.

    I think the OP was driving like a jerk and could have avoided the situation all together if he wasnt.
    Even if the felon attacker deems he was "dissed," NOTHING gives him the right to violently attack someone and threaten him/her with death or damage. Nothing, not even assumptions one was "driving like a jerk."

    Nobody deserves to get beat for an accident, but there is a difference between that and asking for it.
    Granted, we've only heard one side of the story, here. But, it's the part that is the official record; our assumptions don't count, really. There IS indeed a difference between provocation and non-provocation. If the victim had provoked a rational response and that violent attack could be claimed as that rational response, don't you think that would have made it into the police report, and the victim's story here?

    Victim: if the above claim is false, are you able to present a scan of that portion of the police report that documents the actual actions by the felon attacker, where the police document your actions as either provocation or non-provocation?

    ... but obviously there are people out there who would, we know that, and this reinforces it.
    Yes. Be armed. Always. 'Cause there are felons out there looking to kill you for a "diss" or a look, looking to be provoked for non-provoking events, looking to take what you've got for no cause at all. NONE OF WHICH justifies it in the least degree, no matter how stupidly one drives, how non-sympathetic to another someone is. You're correct to say that driving too close is a good way to bump cars. Well, that happened. But that is NOT a "green light" to commit a violent felony on another person, no matter how bummed you are. Not ever. That's why prisons were invented. And that's why we go armed, because some thugs feel they have the right to damage people based on whim. They don't. However, we, as citizens, absolutely have the right to stop them from attempting it, at the moment they're attempting it. Damn right we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    When a man admits to doing 12 years in prison for killing a man, and who moments ago tried to rip your head off, and then boasts that he's going to shove your gun up your arse is a threat which justifies a deadly force response for the following reason.

    He has just in effect, stated that he believes he is capable of disarming you and killing you! At that point... You have to take him at his word!
    The victim might have been guessing at the point he drew his firearm but, the instant the felon verbally confirmed it with his death threat, the victim was absolutely confirmed as being in the right for having done so. He was near death and knew it, given the totality of circumstances. These follow-on words (and the look, tension, presence) of the felon simply sealed it.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #63
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Greatest State in The Union, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    414
    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    One punch can kill, and this has been documented many times.

    No, I'm not going to provide links for you. Such documentation is easy to find if one is willing to search.
    Sure it can. Egg shell victims, I know all about them.

    Here I doubt the OP is an egg shell victim, otherwise he wouldnt have been driving dangerously trying to get someone to move over by riding their bumper.

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,132
    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    Here I doubt the OP is an egg shell victim, otherwise he wouldnt have been driving dangerously trying to get someone to move over by riding their bumper.
    Does any of this justify being feloniously attacked, ripped from a car, and threatened with a severe beating or death? What does "egg shell" or minor fender damage have to do with felonious assault?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  6. #65
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Greatest State in The Union, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    414
    OP made no statements saying he physically attemped to remove the man from himself and/or command him to stop.
    He went straight for the gun.

    The problem is people, you can't just go for the gun every time you're in a situation.

    Situational awareness is KEY.
    Is the OP so daft he couldnt read the body language of the guy walking up to him, who was moments away from attempting to rip him from his car and beat him? He should have been prepared.

    Prepared by keeping the door locked and window rolled up and gun at the ready.

  7. #66
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Greatest State in The Union, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    414
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Does any of this justify being feloniously attacked, ripped from a car, and threatened with a severe beating or death? What does "egg shell" or minor fender damage have to do with felonious assault?
    I didn't bring up egg shell victims, another poster did and I responded to it.

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Show Me State
    Posts
    2,522
    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    OP made no statements saying he physically attemped to remove the man from himself and/or command him to stop.
    He went straight for the gun.

    The problem is people, you can't just go for the gun every time you're in a situation.

    Situational awareness is KEY.
    Is the OP so daft he couldnt read the body language of the guy walking up to him, who was moments away from attempting to rip him from his car and beat him? He should have been prepared.

    Prepared by keeping the door locked and window rolled up and gun at the ready.
    So, are you saying that if I get in an accident and the guy opens my door, wraps his hands around my throat, tries to drag me out of my car, I'm not allowed to defend myself by shooting him?

    If that's not a situation for self-defense, please tell me what is?
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Winston Churchill

  9. #68
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,487
    s the OP so daft he couldnt read the body language of the guy walking up to him, who was moments away from attempting to rip him from his car and beat him? He should have been prepared.
    I would agree that he (or you and I, for that matter) should have been prepared. However, having said that, for those of us who live in rural places out west we can get pretty complacent.

    Most folks and most encounters are pretty darn friendly and we can easily get lulled into complacency. The OP figured that this guy driving in front of him was just another local, friendly guy, and the OP behaved in accordance with local rural custom.

    I think that there is an absolutely critical time between when our "spidey-sense" starts whispering to us and when we actually pay attention to that little voice. In this case, it doesn't seem like there was much time between sitting there in condition white and suddenly realizing that things were going to get really, really ugly.........

  10. #69
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Greatest State in The Union, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    414
    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    So, are you saying that if I get in an accident and the guy opens my door, wraps his hands around my throat, tries to drag me out of my car, I'm not allowed to defend myself by shooting him?

    If that's not a situation for self-defense, please tell me what is?
    Thats not THIS situation. Why are you trying to argue a point anyone with common sense can agree to?

    This situation the OP drove like a jerk, tailgated some guy for miles, then hit the guy who he was tailgating, then proceeded to daftly sit there and think "oh, i bet he's just gunna come and talk to me, haha".
    Then the guy starts to try and drag him out of his vehicle without saying a word? And he just sits there shaking around like a rag doll, then pulls his gun. He had every opportunity to avoid this situation, and thats the real issue.

    I'll say it again ebcause you people keep missing the part where I say "NOBODY DESERVES TO BE BEATEN", but he did nothing to prevent it from happening.

  11. #70
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Near St. Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    2,837
    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    Sure it can. Egg shell victims, I know all about them.

    Here I doubt the OP is an egg shell victim, otherwise he wouldnt have been driving dangerously trying to get someone to move over by riding their bumper.
    How does one know if they are an "egg-shell victim" until they are punched?

    If you know all about them, then surely you know even strong, muscular and adept people can be downed with one punch.

    But you knew that already, I suppose, since you "know all about them."

    Since you are so wise, perhaps you can warn those "egg shell victims" before they are punched, since apparently you can spot who is and who isn't one.

    Wait until you are a few decades older, got some creaks here and there, other muscles don't respond as they did when you were younger, and then have some young, muscular punk come get in your face, maybe grab your neck, and actively try to hurt you.

    Since surely you aren't an "egg shell victim", you'll only rely on your hand-to-hand skills since it would be beneath you to reach for your gun. And don't pretend you can see every attack coming before it gets that close.

    Unless that's another one of your super powers.

    Then we'll see how you will respond.

  12. #71
    Member Array mustang00066's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Bountiful, Utah
    Posts
    107
    Haha Jcabin, I love how you say these things like "Shaking around like a rag doll" or that I was driving like a jerk without being there and seeing what happened.

    Clearly you didn't read my first post carefully.

    I came up to the bronco, went to his left a little and then backed off for a minute or two, the next time i went up close indicating I'd like to pass he moved to the right and as i went to pass him he moved right back over in my way and slammed on his brakes.
    I had a friend in a similar situation where a guy was angry, pulled in front of him and slammed on his brakes to a stop on the freeway for no reason. my friend hit him and the other guy was given the ticket.

    i don't believe after he indicated to me that what i thought meant it was okay to pass, that as I went to pass, I could have avoided the accident.

    Also, I am 26 years old, 6'2" and 185 lbs and in pretty athletic shape. but i'd love to see ANYONE defend themselves while sitting in a truck with a seatbelt still on while someone is pulling you out of the car! my hands were holding on to the steering wheel so I wasn't pulled out of the car right to the ground and then be in a worse situation.

    So do you think i should have gotten out and fought with him? I am confident in my abilities to a certain degree but really, what if he beats me up in the fight and doesn't stop when i get knocked unconscious? what if he picks up a big rock and bashed me in the head with it? What would have happened even if i'd have fought him and got a tooth knocked out? or a broken nose? I'd have lots of bills at least and then had the situation escalated where I did have to shoot I think that line of justified would be quite a bit more blurred!!!

    Definitely not worth the risk of getting out of the car nor did I even consider getting out a viable option as the impact of a very minor accident took place and within seconds he was opening my door.

    "If you shot that guy, under the circumstances you just told us, ANY district attorney would have charged you with ATLEAST involuntary manslaughter. I wouldnt be suprised if it went straight to 3rd degree. If I was a DA and you shot him I'd throw the book at you so hard you wouldn't wake up till you're 5th year in state prison."

    PS, i'm glad you aren't a DA. Again, if you'd have read the previous posts, you'd know that Utah does indeed have a castle doctrine and if you're in the car that's part of the castle! The moment he opened up the door and started grabbing me saying he wanted to kill me, that's where the justification line would have been drawn. AGAIN, as i said in previous posts, they would have had his fingerprints on the door handle of my truck, my ripped shirt, and a bloody or dead guy on top of me in my truck who they probably would've found (if he was telling the truth and i believe he was) to have been a felon convicted of murder!

    How does that make you say 5 years in prison for me?

    Even if I HAD been driving like a total jerk and riding him for miles and caused an accident (all of which did NOT happen) does that make it okay to open someone's door and physically try to pull them out while saying "i'm going to kill you!"? If that scenario HAD taken place and I had had to shoot him, I still believe that would have been justifiable that I believed I was in danger of actually being killed.

    I don't post on here how i had to draw my gun to get some kind of badge of honor or praise or anything in telling the story, I really only shared this so that people could learn from what happened to me and be more aware for themselves in the future.
    If I HAD been driving that way I would have no problem telling you all about it and then the lesson to be learned would be DON'T DRIVE LIKE AN IDIOT, but still, ALWAYS BE ARMED.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

  13. #72
    Member Array mustang00066's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Bountiful, Utah
    Posts
    107
    "OP made no statements saying he physically attemped to remove the man from himself and/or command him to stop.
    He went straight for the gun.

    The problem is people, you can't just go for the gun every time you're in a situation.

    Situational awareness is KEY.
    Is the OP so daft he couldnt read the body language of the guy walking up to him, who was moments away from attempting to rip him from his car and beat him? He should have been prepared.

    Prepared by keeping the door locked and window rolled up and gun at the ready."

    Do you really think once the guy has opened my door and is trying to pull me out that a COMMAND would have made him stop? In hindsight I do NOT believe that would've done anything, especially since after I COMMANDED him to go and get back in his car while pointing a gun at him it took him quite a while to even move!

    I guess I am so daft that the time it took a guy to close about 5 yards and open my door I wasn't already on the phone with the police, have my gun drawn, have already done my jiu jitsu stretches to prepare myself for hand to hand combat, have my EDC knife out with blade locked, and then COMMAND him to get back!

    I'm a real daft idiot I guess...

    And I believe I posted earlier about learning to keep my door locked?
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

  14. #73
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Greatest State in The Union, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    414
    People don't like what I have to say and come back with outlandish and immature responses. I'm not asking much of anyone. I'm just saying to use better judgement and have better situational awareness.

    If you hadn't been crawling up this guys back for miles, and had some patience, the accident wouldn't have happened. In turn you could have avoided the whole situation.

    I'm not saying you deserved what happened to you, nobody deserves to have their rights violated, especially in a violent manner.

    However, did you not consider the fact that you're tailgating and eventual collision of the ex-cons vehicle could possibly enrage him?

    You got yourself into a sheisty situation and now you have to deal with what comes next. You should have gone from condition white, which you were obviously in, if you were lax enough, or out of control enough,to rear end someone, to condition red immediately as you saw the man step out of the car in an aggressive motion.

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Near St. Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    2,837
    I think the OP agrees he could have had better SA. I think we all agree on that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    If you hadn't been crawling up this guys back for miles, and had some patience, the accident wouldn't have happened. In turn you could have avoided the whole situation.
    Your logic here reminds me of what used to happen in a certain Asian country with regard to U.S. military drivers there: if an American had an accident with a local, it was automatically considered by the local police to be the American's fault because if the American hadn't been there, the accident wouldn't have happened. Such logic is not only unfair, it is faulty.

    I believe the OP did have patience, as he followed the guy for a ways. You may assume otherwise, but no one except the OP knows for sure. By his description, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. You gave the con the benefit of the doubt.

    "Crawling up his back for miles" Well, if the con had been willing to pull over and let the OP pass, it wouldn't have gone on for miles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    I'm not saying you deserved what happened to you, nobody deserves to have their rights violated, especially in a violent manner.
    That we agree on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    However, did you not consider the fact that you're tailgating and eventual collision of the ex-cons vehicle could possibly enrage him?
    "eventual collision of the ex-cons vehicle" You mean when the con swerved into the OP? And you fault the OP for that? Oh that's right: if he hadn't been there, it wouldn't have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    You got yourself into a sheisty situation and now you have to deal with what comes next.
    He got himself in a situation by trying to pass a car. Nothing illegal or wrong about that, even on a country road. Happens all the time without altercations. You are placing all the blame, it sounds, on the OP. Yet I don't see any proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    You should have gone from condition white, which you were obviously in, if you were lax enough, or out of control enough,to rear end someone, to condition red immediately as you saw the man step out of the car in an aggressive motion.
    I agree his alertness should have spiked, which he has admitted himself.

    As far as "rear ending" someone, the OP described it as the con swerving back into the lane as he was passing. Big difference.

    Where is your proof that the incident happened as you described?

    You have assigned actions and motives to the OP which you cannot possibly know. You have assumed much. Granted, no one was there except the OP and the con, but from what the OP described, including his admission he was not as aware as he should have been, I am inclined to believe the OP.

    Did this story strike a nerve with you? Has something similar happened to you, where someone tried to pass you on a country road?

    To the OP: I believe you would have been justified to shoot the con, especially once he grabbed you and tried to drag you out. If a similar situation happens to me, I'll wager my freedom and my family's finances that it would be a justified shooting.

    You showed great restraint by not shooting, and it worked out well. Hopefully if any of us get into a similar situation, it will work out as well. But it is easy to see where you could fear for your life with this overly aggressive psycho trying to drag you out of your car by your throat.

    We hope we never have to shoot, but I think you were very, very close to not having any other good option left since he had such an advantage over you and was so physically aggressive.

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    @ Wits' End
    Posts
    2,787
    mustang,

    I think you did a fairly remarkable act of self-restraint under the conditions.

    You have already talked about some of your learnings. Good for you. And thanks for posting. It helps us all, if we are willing to learn from your experience.

    I think the concern about whether this would be ruled justifiable self-defense is a good concern. Remember Harold Fish? All indications are that he was defending himself from a violent criminal. He got 10 years anyway.

    Retrial ordered in fatal shooting of hiker

    It was not an easy call given the political situation in parts of our nation. One can't be certain of how a DA will look on one's actions.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Another scary situation today
    By mastercapt in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: February 6th, 2010, 04:04 PM
  2. Scary situation while unarmed
    By GOPony in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: July 16th, 2008, 09:12 PM
  3. Would you draw in this situation?
    By Pro2A in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: November 16th, 2007, 12:33 PM
  4. Scary Situation
    By GotSig? in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: October 31st, 2007, 02:01 AM
  5. Friend's Scary Situation
    By Betty in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: June 20th, 2007, 12:44 PM

Search tags for this page

description of scary situation

,

how scary is the drive up farmington canyon

,

way of saying scary situation

Click on a term to search for related topics.