Where I draw the line

This is a discussion on Where I draw the line within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If a bad guy walks into a bank pulls a gun and starts issueing orders, I'm going to shoot. He has made the threat (pulling ...

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Thread: Where I draw the line

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    If a bad guy walks into a bank pulls a gun and starts issueing orders, I'm going to shoot. He has made the threat (pulling the gun) and I now am in fear for my life. I'm not trying to defend the bank's money or property just myself.

    The idea of being a "good witness" while a noble idea could get me killed. I don't want to be lying in a pool of blood with my ccw in it's holster.

    I don't want to sound like a wannbe LEO or mall ninga, I just want to be able to go home that night.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    Guys STOP!

    Remember our guns are our very last option. Not our first.

    I'm not a bank robber,but I would think the robber(s) want to get in and out as quickly as possible. The money is the prize not the people in the bank.

    Most bank robberies involve handing the teller a note, not brandishing a gun.

    But, having said that. If someone starts shooting people in a bank, of corse do what you have to do.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    Guys STOP!

    Remember our guns are our very last option. Not our first.

    I'm not a bank robber,but I would think the robber(s) want to get in and out as quickly as possible. The money is the prize not the people in the bank.

    Most bank robberies involve handing the teller a note, not brandishing a gun.

    But, having said that. If someone starts shooting people in a bank, of corse do what you have to do.
    Sorry, I'm not waiting for the shooting to start. Threat has been made, clear shot, I'm taking it. I realize that this can be "what if'ed "to death, but under this set of circumstances I'm taking the shot.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post

    So, if I understand you correctly.

    You are saying that if you yelled at the criminal actor to stop, and he did. You would then shoot him three times?

    What would you do if he didn't stop, shoot him four times? If everyone followed this plan we would all be looking at Manslaughter at a minimum. I may or may not issue a challenge. That depends on the situation and what is happening, and how sufficient my cover is.

    It's good to think through possible scenarios, and have some sort of plan, but remember, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." In short, things are fluid and changing, and you have to be willing to adapt quickly.

    Please don't get "cemented" into thinking there is only one way to solve the problem. As my Daddy told me a long time ago, "Son, there's more than one way to go around the Barn. Pick the way that works for you, as long as you get where you want to be."

    Biker
    I think you are spot on. We can only train for that which is familiar, since there's no way to consider every mutation of every situation. I depend upon my training and my instincts and my gut, and will react accordingly. Instinct dictates that self survival and survival of the the family are the two top primal priorities.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I would have to be there. I agree with resupt99, no warning. That's why we carry concealed, element of surprise. I could see yelling something as a distraction, depending on the situation.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Now once the BG started herding people to back rooms, my definition of innocent bystander may change...not sure...would have to be there...but if action were needed, there would be no warnings...
    ^^ Absolutely how I plan to play it out.

    Of course, circumstances will guide everything, and every situation is different. As BikerRN points out, fluidity requires adaptation and flexibility in order to accommodate the new reality.

    But, suffice to say, that if a single predator is attempting to manage three or four people while continually moving throughout a facility in that way, then there will likely be plenty of opportunity to take him down. I will not be herded into "the back room." There will also be no warnings.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  8. #22
    Member Array Random's Avatar
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    As far as I am concerned, being tied up or confined by someone against my will constitutes a very real threat to my life or safety.

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array kellyII's Avatar
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    I have to agree, at that point theres no shouting, just shootin

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    Guys STOP!

    Remember our guns are our very last option. Not our first.

    I'm not a bank robber,but I would think the robber(s) want to get in and out as quickly as possible. The money is the prize not the people in the bank.

    Most bank robberies involve handing the teller a note, not brandishing a gun.

    But, having said that. If someone starts shooting people in a bank, of corse do what you have to do.
    Personally, I have zero interest in intervening in the robbery. If all the BG(s) are doing is taking the money and exiting, I'll happily lay there and be a witness.

    However, herding the customers and staff into the back room is traditionally the start of a execution. Completely different scenario, IMHO.

    As BikerRN notes, every situation is different and must be played out that way. If I truly believe that the BG(s) are herding the customers and staff into the back room to eliminate the witnesses, it's go time.

    Now, realistically, we're talking about drawing against a drawn gun here. It's a losing proposition, but if I'm going to die anyway, I'll opt to go out on my feet, you'll find me in a pile of brass when it's all over, and perhaps one or more of the BG(s) won't be attending the celebration dinner.

    Hopefully, none of us will ever have to deal with this beyond discussing it as a "what if".

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    I'm not shouting anything. I'm not calling attention to myself.

    I will quietly comply, UNLESS the order is given to go into another room, I'm ordered down on my knees, or the shooting starts.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    There have been 4 or 5 armed robberies in Spokane this week. Fun...

    Note that the man did not actually display a firearm in the video and I am unsure that anyone actually saw a firearm. He stuck his hand into his "poncho" and acted in a threatening manner, but I know of no actual confirmation he had a weapon.

    Does that meet the criteria for deadly force?

    edit: article says he pulls a pistol, i don't necessarily see it...


    In the surveillance video, you can see the man pull what appears to a pistol from his pocket as the teller throws up her hands.

  13. #27
    Member Array CJ810's Avatar
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    Shoot to stop vs. shoot to kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    In SC...
    Triple tap, huh? Is that the "2 to the COM then 1 to the head" method? We shoot to stop. That's shooting to kill. It'll get you up for Murder 2 real fast.
    Is that in SC or is that the standard in all states that allow CC? That seems kind of vague. What is shooting to stop, but not to kill? One shot wait, 2nd shot wait... Leg, pelvis, chest, but not head...?

  14. #28
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    I'm sure of two things:

    1) I am not (no longer) a police officer.
    2) My weapon is a tool of last resort. It is only to be used when there is an imminent threat of severe bodily harm or death.

    Nuff said.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    I'd stay back unless he took interest in me, or began shooting. Otherwise I'd be a good witness.

    As others have said, if I draw there will be no words spoken. I draw to end the threat.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Sorry, I'm not waiting for the shooting to start. Threat has been made, clear shot, I'm taking it. I realize that this can be "what if'ed "to death, but under this set of circumstances I'm taking the shot.
    My CWP instructor told us if someone presents a gun, you must assume they intend to use it - act accordingly.

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