Where I draw the line
This is a discussion on Where I draw the line within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If a bad guy walks into a bank pulls a gun and starts issueing orders, I'm going to shoot. He has made the threat (pulling ...
October 2nd, 2009 10:52 AM
If a bad guy walks into a bank pulls a gun and starts issueing orders, I'm going to shoot. He has made the threat (pulling the gun) and I now am in fear for my life. I'm not trying to defend the bank's money or property just myself.
The idea of being a "good witness" while a noble idea could get me killed. I don't want to be lying in a pool of blood with my ccw in it's holster.
I don't want to sound like a wannbe LEO or mall ninga, I just want to be able to go home that night.
October 2nd, 2009 10:52 AM
October 2nd, 2009 11:10 AM
Remember our guns are our very last option. Not our first.
I'm not a bank robber,but I would think the robber(s) want to get in and out as quickly as possible. The money is the prize not the people in the bank.
Most bank robberies involve handing the teller a note, not brandishing a gun.
But, having said that. If someone starts shooting people in a bank, of corse do what you have to do.
Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
October 2nd, 2009 11:40 AM
Sorry, I'm not waiting for the shooting to start. Threat has been made, clear shot, I'm taking it. I realize that this can be "what if'ed "to death, but under this set of circumstances I'm taking the shot.
Originally Posted by varob
October 2nd, 2009 11:52 AM
I think you are spot on. We can only train for that which is familiar, since there's no way to consider every mutation of every situation. I depend upon my training and my instincts and my gut, and will react accordingly. Instinct dictates that self survival and survival of the the family are the two top primal priorities.
Originally Posted by BikerRN
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
October 2nd, 2009 12:51 PM
I would have to be there. I agree with resupt99, no warning. That's why we carry concealed, element of surprise. I could see yelling something as a distraction, depending on the situation.
Trust in God and keep your powder dry
"A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source
October 2nd, 2009 12:59 PM
^^ Absolutely how I plan to play it out.
Originally Posted by retsupt99
Of course, circumstances will guide everything, and every situation is different. As BikerRN points out, fluidity requires adaptation and flexibility in order to accommodate the new reality.
But, suffice to say, that if a single predator is attempting to manage three or four people while continually moving throughout a facility in that way, then there will likely be plenty of opportunity to take him down. I will not be herded into "the back room." There will also be no warnings.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
October 2nd, 2009 02:09 PM
As far as I am concerned, being tied up or confined by someone against my will constitutes a very real threat to my life or safety.
October 2nd, 2009 02:10 PM
I have to agree, at that point theres no shouting, just shootin
October 2nd, 2009 02:55 PM
Personally, I have zero interest in intervening in the robbery. If all the BG(s) are doing is taking the money and exiting, I'll happily lay there and be a witness.
Originally Posted by varob
However, herding the customers and staff into the back room is traditionally the start of a execution. Completely different scenario, IMHO.
As BikerRN notes, every situation is different and must be played out that way. If I truly believe that the BG(s) are herding the customers and staff into the back room to eliminate the witnesses, it's go time.
Now, realistically, we're talking about drawing against a drawn gun here. It's a losing proposition, but if I'm going to die anyway, I'll opt to go out on my feet, you'll find me in a pile of brass when it's all over, and perhaps one or more of the BG(s) won't be attending the celebration dinner.
Hopefully, none of us will ever have to deal with this beyond discussing it as a "what if".
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
October 2nd, 2009 03:44 PM
I'm not shouting anything. I'm not calling attention to myself.
I will quietly comply, UNLESS the order is given to go into another room, I'm ordered down on my knees, or the shooting starts.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
October 2nd, 2009 04:40 PM
There have been 4 or 5 armed robberies in Spokane this week. Fun...
Note that the man did not actually display a firearm in the video and I am unsure that anyone actually saw a firearm. He stuck his hand into his "poncho" and acted in a threatening manner, but I know of no actual confirmation he had a weapon.
Does that meet the criteria for deadly force?
edit: article says he pulls a pistol, i don't necessarily see it...
In the surveillance video, you can see the man pull what appears to a pistol from his pocket as the teller throws up her hands.
October 2nd, 2009 05:00 PM
Shoot to stop vs. shoot to kill
Is that in SC or is that the standard in all states that allow CC? That seems kind of vague. What is shooting to stop, but not to kill? One shot wait, 2nd shot wait... Leg, pelvis, chest, but not head...?
Originally Posted by Keltyke
October 2nd, 2009 05:13 PM
I'm sure of two things:
1) I am not (no longer) a police officer.
2) My weapon is a tool of last resort. It is only to be used when there is an imminent threat of severe bodily harm or death.
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
October 2nd, 2009 06:27 PM
I'd stay back unless he took interest in me, or began shooting. Otherwise I'd be a good witness.
As others have said, if I draw there will be no words spoken. I draw to end the threat.
October 2nd, 2009 06:37 PM
My CWP instructor told us if someone presents a gun, you must assume they intend to use it - act accordingly.
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