Using deadly force to stop a theft....

Using deadly force to stop a theft....

This is a discussion on Using deadly force to stop a theft.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm pretty sure this guy is wishing he could take that shot back........ Friday, October 2, 2009 Last updated 10:11 a.m. PT Man who shot ...

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 61

Thread: Using deadly force to stop a theft....

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    SurfCity
    Posts
    541

    Using deadly force to stop a theft....

    I'm pretty sure this guy is wishing he could take that shot back........

    Friday, October 2, 2009
    Last updated 10:11 a.m. PT
    Man who shot car prowler in Northgate pleads guilty to manslaughter
    He may be sentenced to nine months

    By SCOTT SUNDE
    SEATTLEPI.COM STAFF

    A Seattle man facing manslaughter charges for fatally shooting a car prowler with a rifle pleaded guilty Friday after reaching a plea agreement with prosecutors.

    Filing a second-degree manslaughter charge in September, King County prosecutors alleged that Douglas Cameron Sheets acted with criminal negligence when he shot Jhovany Hernandez outside his Northgate home. According to court filings, police came to believe that Sheets shot Hernandez as the 21-year-old fled.

    Sheets was arraigned Friday, then pleaded guilty to second-degree manslaughter. Since he has no other criminal record, he would face a sentence of 21 to 27 months.

    But prosecutors will recommend just nine months, pointing to a mitigating factor listed in sentencing laws. That factor is invoked when the victim instigated the incident as Hernandez did during the car prowl.

    Describing the Sept. 24, 2008, shooting, Seattle police Detective James Cooper said in statements to the court that incident began when Sheets heard several men breaking into his car.

    From the balcony of his apartment in the 9700 block of Fifth Avenue Northeast, Sheets saw an unfamiliar car idling near the parking stall underneath the balcony where his Toyota Camry was parked. Three other men, Cooper said, were breaking into the vehicle.

    Sheets returned to the balcony with a Mosin-Nagant bolt-action rifle, Cooper said, prompting the men in the car to flee as two of the apparent car prowlers, including Hernandez, remained near the apartment. Trying to get to the prowlers' car, Hernandez ran carrying a 27-pound subwoofer taken from Sheets' car.

    Cooper said that Sheets told officers Hernandez turned and reached for the waistband of his pants before the shooting. Sheets took aim and fired, striking Hernandez in the back of the head.

    Sheets then rushed out of his apartment, Cooper said, checking Hernandez for a pulse and found the man dead. Police later determined that Hernandez was unarmed at the time of the shooting.

    Speaking to officers after being taken into custody, Sheets allegedly told investigators he had not intended to kill Hernandez.

    "When the defendant told them to freeze, the defendant claimed the last guy turned around holding the subwoofer up by his head with one hand," Cooper said in court documents. "The defendant said (Hernandez), with his free hand, then started reaching for his waistband."

    Sheets, the detective added, "said he wasn't going to take any chances, he 'freaked the (expletive) out, and he fired."

    During an autopsy, staff with the King County Medical Examiner's Office found Hernandez had been killed by the single gunshot to the back of his head.

    Sheets will likely be sentenced in about a month.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Lansing Mi
    Posts
    7,495
    Its importand to know your state laws on defending property. I kinda feel for the guy, but in my state if I take a shot like that I would go to jail as well. Know you state laws.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Western Colorado
    Posts
    4,489
    I predict that Sheets will go to jail and that Hernandez will not re-offend.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,456
    I wonder if Sheets knows how to dial 911? Probably does now.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  5. #5
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,883
    As already said, know the laws of your state. If this had happened in TX no charges would have been filed, most likely. Here in VA you'd be in the same boat as Sheets. Personally I don't think property is worth taking someone's life over, but someone else may.

  6. #6
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    45,085
    Heck of a penalty for becoming involved without knowing the laws...
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  7. #7
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    35,598
    In PA you can not use deadly force to protect personal property.

    Also Known As:
    Stealing a car speaker does not fetch a death penalty conviction in Pennsylvania and shooting a thief in the back of the head from a distance with a rifle would come across as a true Lead balloon here also.

  8. #8
    Ex Member Array Karter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    116
    9 months for shooting a fleeing suspect in the back of the head? If he turn and reached for his waistband how did he get shot in the back of the head? Shooter gets off light here. He should be doing 10 years.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    27,398
    If this occurred in Texas, he'd be given the keys to his town as a hero.

    In this case, he's in Seattle and uses a Russian battle rifle to gun down a fleeing thief. I can see why he did a plea, 'cause they were probably tossing the book at him.

    Had he, instead, come out to his car and found three people who then turned on him, he'd be defending himself and have had a much easier time of claiming he did what he did to survive the encounter. But then, in such a case, it's his life (and not merely the life of a woofer) that would be in jeopardy. Far easier to justify that sort of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Heck of a penalty for becoming involved without knowing the laws...
    Just what I was thinking. Pullin' out the Mosin-Nagant in Seattle at a fleeing thief isn't exactly a ticket to stardom.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #10
    Ex Member Array BuckeyeEric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    265
    Irresponsible use of deadly force and bad press for the rest of us

  11. #11
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,916
    Yep, you gotta know where you stand in your State.

    People these days are really getting tired of criminals getting away with so much. They hate the injustice and the next thing they know... They end up on the wrong side of the law themselves.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,022
    Quote
    police came to believe that Sheets shot Hernandez as the 21-year-old fled.
    End

    ccw9mm,
    I seriously doubt that TX would permit the shooting as the man fled. Are there any actual cases that would verify your claim that TX would not prosecute?
    I don't believe the Horn case would be a verification. Hernandez did not have the car in possession when he fled.

    I think it is deplorable the way the crooks get away with crime, but the law does not give you unlimited authority to use deadly force even in TX.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  13. #13
    Member Array Jetpilot007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    449
    Agreed, he should have known the state laws. If it were in NY State that person would have been given the same treatment. I urge each gun holder to check their gun laws.

    Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that should I have to apply deadly physical force against a BG, and assuming that I have followed the letter of the law, I would probably be arrested, and at best, my CCW license revoked and face civil suits. Hence all of my assets seized while the family of a BG would vacation in Costa Rica on my dime. A real pathetic state government we have in New York.

    For the State of NY, there is an excellent book called:

    Firearms and Weapons Laws: Gun Control in New York
    Lee O. Thomas & Jeffrey Chamberlain
    Ring-Bound, 568 pages
    Looseleaf Law Publications, Incorporated
    March 01, 1997

    It is written by an attorney and a retired NYS Trooper. It also comes with updates.

  14. #14
    VIP Member
    Array TX-JB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Sugar Land, TX
    Posts
    5,739
    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    I seriously doubt that TX would permit the shooting as the man fled. Are there any actual cases that would verify your claim that TX would not prosecute?
    I don't believe the Horn case would be a verification. Hernandez did not have the car in possession when he fled.

    I think it is deplorable the way the crooks get away with crime, but the law does not give you unlimited authority to use deadly force even in TX.
    Texas statutes allow the use of deadly force to stop "theft at night time" and/or to stop the actor from fleeing with the property... I didn't see a reference in the original story to the time. TX also allows the use of deadly force to stop burglary at any time of the day/night. This would be considered "Burglary to a Motor Vehicle".

    TX laws give a lot of leeway in the use of deadly force, but just because it's covered by statute, doesn't mean it's the wise or ethical thing to do....
    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston

    Retired LEO
    Firearms Instructor
    NRA Life Member

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    yes
    Posts
    1,644
    for analysis sake, Washington States Law:

    Chapter 9A.16 RCW: Defenses

    RCW 9A.16.050
    Homicide By other person When justifiable.


    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
    I agree that having your car broken into while watching from your balcony does NOT justify deadly force. If he could have articulated in court that he was in fear for his life due to the man reaching into his waist band and the jury believed him, he could have been acquitted. That would have been tough with the rifle shot to the back of the head. This plea deal is acceptable from my perspective.

    Here is a similar-ish story from here in Spokane where a drunk off-duty officer shot an unarmed man after some sort ride home or car theft argument. The officer was able to articulate in court that he feared for his safety and was acquitted...

    Jay Olsen found not guilty | Top Stories | KREM.com | News for Spokane, Washington

    On a personal note: ALWAYS STAY INSIDE. Lock the doors and call 911. Less people get shot that way.

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Deadly force
    By debrunsky in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: January 5th, 2010, 02:19 AM
  2. Throws...deadly force?
    By mercop in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: November 19th, 2009, 12:40 PM
  3. Homeowner Uses Deadly Force To Stop Home Invader
    By CT-Mike in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: March 6th, 2008, 06:09 PM
  4. When It's Okay To Use Deadly Force
    By Bumper in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: June 17th, 2004, 02:17 PM

Search tags for this page

can i use gun to prevent theft
,
deadly force for theft
,
deadly force theft
,

deadly force to prevent theft

,
missuri law using force to stop stealing
,
pa lethal force to prevent theft
,

use of deadly force in washington state

,
using force with theft
,

washington state deadly force laws

,
washington state law for deadly force
,
washington state law use of deadly force
,
washington state use of deadly force
Click on a term to search for related topics.