Question For The Pastors - Page 2

Question For The Pastors

This is a discussion on Question For The Pastors within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would like to extend a group THANK YOU to all that replied. Eventhough I am not a man of the cloth I feel that ...

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Thread: Question For The Pastors

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I would like to extend a group THANK YOU to all that replied.

    Eventhough I am not a man of the cloth I feel that this is a decision that anyone that carries a gun for defensive purposes should come to grips with long before they start carrying a gun.

    To me a gun is a life saving tool and it's power is able to be used rightly or wrongly, depending upon whom is behind the gun. Granted there are some situations where there is no good choice, just some choices are a little better than others.

    Maybe not the pastors that have made the decision to protect their lives, and others, but society as a whole doesn't spend much time reflecting what it really means to take a human life. I can tell you that while I've never taken a life, I have been around death and have been close to taking a life on more than one occasion. In each instance a little bit of my humanity died.

    For me the choice is between the death of my humanity and the death of my physical being. I know which choice I have made, but it isn't for me to tell another what their choice is, or should be.

    Take care and stay safe;

    Biker


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Biker RN; Thank you for your post about death. I have seen death up close and personal many times. I have never been the cause of death personally. However I have seen the aftermath of evil actions. Evil has increased in our land and evil in the heart will be acted on unless it is overcome by good. Sometimes you are not given the time to overcome evil by the Gospel, or acts of kindness, or good actions etc.
    Thank God for law enforcement, but they can not be everywhere at one time and calling 911 may not be a fast enough method to stop an evil one from reloading and starting over.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Death is not pretty, but still better him than me.

    This is similar to the question of whether medics should carry. Lots of emotion an the NO side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherof10 View Post
    The first on engine encountered two armed men in the parking lot that shot at the engine
    I can think of one thing the engine could do to safe the scene without even slowing down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    There is a huge difference between killing and murder. Cain committed murder.
    Exactly.

    And there are several verses that deal rather directly with arms and self defense.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  4. #19
    Member Array das38spl's Avatar
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    As an ordained minister, I can safely say I would have no reservation about taking a human life if that human was an immediate DEADLY threat to the life of other innocent humans.
    "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord..." And so it is....If I take another human life, it is NOT for revenge...or even "justice"...it is to spare other innocents from IMMEDIATE and GRAVE BODILY INJURY OR DEATH!!
    No more...no less....
    It has never been problematic for me to "carry" while the the House of God (PROVIDED no local ordinances are violated....). With the recent attacks by some "loose cannons" in church sanctuaries, it would not surprise me to see more "persons of the cloth" carrying more than a crucifix and a Bible in the future....
    Just my opinion...to each his own...Thank God!

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    "have been close to taking a life on more than one occasion. In each instance a little bit of my humanity died. "- BikerRN

    No, Bro.
    More of YOUR humanity was realized.
    What you felt was the dying of humanity in those who would force an otherwise peaceful person (you) to consider taking the life of another.

    dan

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
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    More of YOUR humanity was realized.
    What you felt was the dying of humanity in those who would force an otherwise peaceful person (you) to consider taking the life of another.
    Very well put and a lot truth is such a simple statement

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    There is a huge difference between killing and murder. Cain committed murder.

    Sorry to weasel in as I am not a pastor/priest, but I heard a long time ago, that in Hebrew, "tho shalt not kill," translates means, tho shalt not murder. ,,ie; cold blood.

    To kill in protection of life would not be part of the definition of murder then, correct ??

    Here is a website that may explain it better, it actually delves into this specifically


    http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...l#OugV7dbb0ba5


    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent
    Last edited by oneshot; October 18th, 2009 at 08:37 PM. Reason: add website
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  8. #23
    cmb
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    Good comments here, as a pastor I agree also to die for the gospel but not for random, senseless violence... I am in a very pro gun area and I shoot with several of our members...

  9. #24
    Member Array Platinum13's Avatar
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    Our pastor fully believes in protecting, and being protected. With that said our Church has a Security Team in place. We have several people in different locations of the property. They have constant wireless monitoring capabilities of the going ons of the Sanctuary and the means to stop a threat. Also our pastor has no problems with members carrying Concealed (as long as he is aware) and actually encourages it. He has also coordinated for the congregation members that are interested to Enroll in a CWP class... I think it is a good idea for Chuches to have these safety precautions in place because this world is getting crazier by the minute.

  10. #25
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    Would I die for Christ? Maybe and maybe not. Would I die for my family? Probably. Would I take someone's life in defense of myself, my family, or the innocent? I hope so. I'm so much like the Apostle Peter in so many ways that I'm not very confident in swearing allegiance, if that makes any sense.

    There are two conflicting schools of thought biblically (as I see it):
    1. God is absolutely sovereign. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens to me without His consent. This is not being naive. It's either true or not. There is very little wiggle room.
    2. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. i.e. Just because I call myself a believer does not guarantee my safety or the safety of my family and flock. Far better and more godly men and women than I could ever hope to be have died horrible deaths at the hands of evil.

    So, I have taken my mustard seed of faith and gone with Plan B. However, I do pray three things regularly:
    1. I pray I never, ever have to draw my weapon.
    2. I pray that I never, ever have to take someone's life.
    3. I pray that if I do have to draw, I would have the courage and wisdom to do "the right thing", whatever that is.
    "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Eccl. 10:2

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aznav View Post
    Would I die for Christ? Maybe and maybe not. Would I die for my family? Probably. Would I take someone's life in defense of myself, my family, or the innocent? I hope so. I'm so much like the Apostle Peter in so many ways that I'm not very confident in swearing allegiance, if that makes any sense.

    There are two conflicting schools of thought biblically (as I see it):
    1. God is absolutely sovereign. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens to me without His consent. This is not being naive. It's either true or not. There is very little wiggle room.
    2. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. i.e. Just because I call myself a believer does not guarantee my safety or the safety of my family and flock. Far better and more godly men and women than I could ever hope to be have died horrible deaths at the hands of evil.

    So, I have taken my mustard seed of faith and gone with Plan B. However, I do pray three things regularly:
    1. I pray I never, ever have to draw my weapon.
    2. I pray that I never, ever have to take someone's life.
    3. I pray that if I do have to draw, I would have the courage and wisdom to do "the right thing", whatever that is.
    Interesting.

    I notice a distinct difference between our daily thoughts. That may be a difference between our faiths, or lack there of on my part, as everyday I say, "Today may be the day I am forced to take a life."

    I do not relish the idea, but I am going home alive. If you put me in the situation where I have to shoot, stab or do bodily harm I will do my best to accomodate you. Otherwise, all I ask is to be left alone.

    I tend to concern myself with the legal justifications and standards of physical and deadly force. In short, I don't care about anyone's soul, including my own. I care about the physical being, not the spiritual. It is man that will judge me in the courtroom. Therefore it is only man, and his standards, that I am concerned about. My concern is in meeting those standards, and trying to avoid being placed in situations where I may have to meet those standards.

    When I typed that "part of my humanity died" I was not joking or kidding, and it was NOT a misprint. If you wish to trivialize it, minimize it or try to reword it, as some did, you do not know me very well. I wrote what I meant, and meant what I wrote.

    Some see me as cold and callous. That is because I am cold and callous when I think it is called for. I can also be the one that helps you, but will only do so if I want to, and on my terms. Everyone wants to be liked, myself included. I'll take being respected over being liked any day if I can only have one of the two.

    Thanks again for the replies to my thread. I hope it gives some pause for serious consideration.

    Biker
    Last edited by BikerRN; October 22nd, 2009 at 03:57 AM. Reason: typo

  12. #27
    Member Array CherokeeSlim's Avatar
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    Marine Corps - 4 years; State Trooper 10 years - missionary 30 years. You can guess where I stand on this. If you want to talk with other like-minded people there is:

    Christian Zone Forum - Powered by vBulletin

    Cherokee Slim
    NRA, SASS #72605, ROII, WBRO, Ocoee Rangers, Tennessee Mountain Maurauders. Semper Fi

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    "When I typed that "part of my humanity died" I was not joking or kidding, and it was NOT a misprint. If you wish to trivialize it, minimize it or try to reword it, as some did, you do not know me very well. I wrote what I meant, and meant what I wrote.

    Some see me as cold and callous. That is because I am cold and callous when I think it is called for. I can also be the one that helps you, but will only do so if I want to, and on my terms. Everyone wants to be liked, myself included. I'll take being respected over being liked any day if I can only have one of the two."-BikerRN

    I dont think anyone believed you were joking or kidding. And I dont see where anyone trivialized, or minimized it. I didnt reword it, if it was my post you are addressing. I posted my opinion. I believe you to be quite a respectable human being, and quite likable by those w like minds. I've read enough of your posts to know NONE of your decisions are made lightly, or without a great deal of thought. Just the way you word simple responses shows a pattern of very deliberate consideration and attention to each word's meaning. But for me to presume to know you better than you know yourself would be quite erroneous, and arrogant on my part. You have my apologies if my post implied that you were wrong about your degree of humanity. To whatever degree your humanity has been reduced, you will still have more redeeming value as a person than those who would harm you for their own gain. That is what separates us from them. If one were to allow enough of one's humanity (in this case I refer to empathy, sympathy, "live and let live") due to the actions of others, wouldn't one be in danger of losing enough of one's humanity to become "one of them"?
    Again, I dont know you personally, but from what I do know here on the forum, I'd wager you would never allow yourself to become one of them. Are you capable of visiting a mass quantity of violence on another? I believe you are. But I believe only under the beleif that you or another is going to suffer gbh or death. You have never posted anything that would lead me to think you are going to do violence for any other reason than listed above. And posts are all I have to form my opinion of you. Therefore, it is MY opinion, that you are still more 'humanity inclined' than even you may believe. Either way we see it, you are both liked and respected, most assuredly by myself. I read your posts believing I will learn something each time.
    I will endeavor not to post an opinion w/out properly designating it as such. The misunderstanding is on my part. Sorry.

    dan

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    "No, Bro.
    More of YOUR humanity was realized.
    What you felt was the dying of humanity in those who would force an otherwise peaceful person (you) to consider taking the life of another."-dan

    Went back over my post. I DID reword it as BikerRN referenced. Sorry, Biker, shoulda worded the response as an opinion.

    dan

  15. #30
    Member Array r0rtiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    There is a huge difference between killing and murder. Cain committed murder.
    Agreed. I resent being lumped in with Cain and other murderers. Premeditated homicide is not justified in the eyes of the Judeo-Christian God. Self-defense is not only justified, but advocated in scripture.
    "Surely the preservation and enjoyment of the freedoms vouchsafed to us by the Constitution of the United States will require eternal vigilance even to the guarding of it with our lives. We must ever keep faith with our founding fathers by keeping faith with our Constitution."

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