This is a discussion on how far we have come in 50 years... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think it all comes down to the lack of respect and the entitlement philosophy....
I think it all comes down to the lack of respect and the entitlement philosophy.
"When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."
--Thomas Jefferson --
First off, I agree with you Buckeye that I feel God has no place in schools. Religion has been excuse for a lot of terror throughout the centuries.
That said, it's becoming obvious that a lot of parents think their kids are spotless and siding with the child rather than the adult in situations of conflict.
Just last year I was at a kiddy/parent camp and caught a child red handed doing something he wasn't supposed to. After waving my finger at him a couple times I took him to his father for disciplining. He told his father a lie about what he was doing which his father immediately believed and started scolding me for "framing" his child and destroying his child's belief that adults act fairly.
When I was growing up, if you got caught for doing something or you got "framed" where it looked like you did something but really didn't. We all know that the "adults" would band together and onus was on us to prove our innocence - right or wrong.
Now days, kids are learning that authority is something that can be flaunted because their parents will come in and defend them and that duping your parents is easy. Many parents are too busy being their kid's friends rather than being a parent.
Although I don't want a stranger hitting my kid under any circumstances, I'm going to back a respected adult first before I believe my kids - it's their hole to dig out of. As to non violent discipline, have at it.
This is a result of parents, not government intervention.
Cycler, I have a few friends that teach in several local public schools. They have all had the same problems you mention. If a student won't do his work and they have to give them a bad grade then of course the parents come in and raise cane with the principal and teachers because it's not the child's fault. The word of the child is always taken now and the teacher is left to change the grade or let the student get by with whatever they want. Like it has been mentioned before we would get a paddling at school and this also meant you had another one coming when you got home. Treating others with respect and learning that actions have consequences needs to be taught by the parents and not left up to others.
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Every thing said here rings true. But, over the last 50 years I would have to say drugs have fueled a lot of societies problems. Children growing up without fathers, lack of roll models.
Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
You get in trouble at school...you get in trouble at home (period!)
Major Edit: It is the lack of taking responsibility for ones actions and no concept in "cause and effect" in todays generation. Everyone is trying to cheat the system, cheat the law, and now cheat morality. Morality is absolutely an individual's perception, but there is a definite base line that everyone agrees on. Which side of that "line" you stand at determines if you have Conservative or a liberal views.
So who is supposed to be the "role model" for all this? You guessed it...PARENTS. I sit here, 44 years old and can honestly say that the generation of "my" parents failed us! Thats right...your mom and dad's generation failed us! Because the children they raised then are running the world right now..and even scarier...is raising the next generation. Poor parenting, or the lack thereof is what is driving this world into the Popper! That and religion!
Last edited by BuckeyeEric; October 19th, 2009 at 01:16 PM.
It isn't one thing. It is one or many things, or even nothing.
Drugs really, at the turn of the century cocaine was in every cola and cough medicine at the drug store, and folks took to them like candy. During prohibition, well that didn't stop anything so they made it legal again.
Schools really, my son is in first grade and he is doing simple algebra, doing reading entire books every night and has engineering as part of his curiculum. I don't think the school have been dumbed down. Maybe the parents have been dumbed down because they don't help the kids do homework, or expect the school system to provide the discipline. My son is much more afraid of what I will do to him if he gets in trouble a school than what the school will do to him. BTW, his teachers don't have any trouble out of him.
Religion really, there are probably as many if not more folks that say they are affiliated with religion today as there has ever been.
Court system really, once someone gets to the point where the court system is involved it is already too late, you pretty much lost that one some time back.
Politicians really, well if your using any politician as a role model for you or your kid, you don't have very high expectations for them or yourself.
I could go on and on, but it is none of those or anything else I could list.
Everyone go look in the mirror. It is us, the people of this country are was has changed in the past 50, 100 years however you want to look at it. Are we better or worse, I don't know. I think it goes both ways.
The people that I hang around are all a pretty good group of folks. Most every one of them is on their first and only marriage, they take care of their kids, pay their bills, are involved with the kids outside activities, and don't put up with bad behavior. Some go to church some don't but that doesn't make them good or bad folks. If one of their kids needs a knock on their head because they are doing something dumb, well, pretty much and dad that is around and some moms are more than willing to straighten up someone else's kid. And the parent thanks you for doing it.
Too often we look for other reasons or other things to blame when the answers to what is wrong are really close to us.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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@ Buckeye, Cycler.
I rest my case. You can trace back to where things started to go wrong and you will find a direct correlation to the day Madeleine Murray O'Hair stood before the SCOTUS and got them to take prayer out of our schools. No one in their right minds can deny this correlation or coincidence. Couple that with the "no one is touching my kid" nonsense and the recipe for our current disaster has its origin.
Heck, when I was growing up, the paddle permit was the first document my parents signed......
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry
Since when can't you talk to your imaginary friend in school ? That's not true at all. Schools can't make you pray, you can pray on your own as much as you want as long as you do your school work. Does a prayer have to be an official school production to work ? Islam has that problem licked, they have Madrassahs,unfortunately, that's all the kids learn,prayer.
Why won't god heal amputees ?
God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs
Crime rates ARE down, but who cares ? Those are just facts anyway, we can believe what we want .
The poster who mentioned the media had a good point, we can now find out about anything that happens anywhere instantly, before we never heard of most of the crimes that happened unless it was close to home or made the national news. Now, somebody gets robbed in a small town on the other side of the country and we know about it, couple that kind of access to information with the notion that bad news sells and you have a 24/7 cycle of bad news. People are morbidly fascinated by violence and crime, Write a story about a Girl Scout selling a thousand boxes of cookies and people yawn. On the other hand, write a story about a robbery, a shootout, throw in drugs, and maybe a little sex and it'll be the number one item on the news. not that we don't have crime and other problems, just saying that because of the way the media works we hear a lot more about it now.
Who would have thought that beating your kids and praying in school would solve all of societies problems ?
Now that we know we can all get started.
I'm going first, due to the overwhelming evidence of the power of prayer, I am canceling my medical appointments, throwing away my VA card, selling my guns, and canceling my automobile insurance. I'm going to pray my way through life. I invite the rest of my believing brethren to do the same .
Same by said folk were common statements of walking to school through 3' of snow blizzards while wearing just dress shoes and wool socks...daily, for months.
Fifty years ago was 1959
Homes and auto and school lockers then had locks just as they do today, and people used them.
Think of where these people who make such comments typically live or lived past tense.
Good luck finding a city aka 'urban' raised person who would make such a comment. City/urban defined as being a place where there is a high population density not just by total number but as based on a ratio of persons per square mile.
Much of America present and past grow up/grew up in city/urbanized high population density areas.
It's by no accident that places with light to low population density have less crime.
As well it's no accident that places with light to low population density tend to not be citys , but rather various degrees of rural towns.
Swap out "town" or "city" for 'county' or 'state' and boom you get what is not exactly hard to predict.
Below is some data to peruse...
Take note of the population numbers as totals _and_ that of the population density as based against total land mass in square miles.POPULATION OF THE 100 LARGEST CITIES
AND OTHER URBAN PLACES IN THE
UNITED STATES: 1790 TO 1990
U.S. Bureau of the Census
Population Division Working Paper No. 27
Population of the 100 Largest Cities and Other Urban Places In The United States: 1790 to 1990
The fallacy of this it was better in the old days common thought begins to become apparent.
Now to solve the riddle of why some but defintiely not all or even technically a majority of citizens can make claim to this concept of it was safer back in the day claim, take note of this...'What is rural'
The Bureau of the Census defines an urbanized area, http://www.census.gov/population/censusdata/urdef.txt, (UA) by population density. According to this definition, each UA includes a central city and the surrounding densely settled territory that together have a population of 50,000 or more and a population density generally exceeding 1,000 people per square mile...all persons living in UA's and in places (cities, towns, villages, etc.) with a population of 2,500 or more outside of UA's are considered the urban population. All others are considered rural.
Source - What is Rural?
A lot of cities shown there most all of them with net negative values associated.US Cities With Substantially
Same Borders: 1950-2000:
Change in Population Density
City 1950 2000 Change
New York 26,046 26,429 1.5%
Somerville 24,878 18,537 -25.5%
Jersey City 19,933 16,000 -19.7%
Cambridge 18,750 15,781 -15.8%
Newark 18,208 11,375 -37.5%
Chicago 17,409 12,746 -26.8%
Boston 17,043 12,169 -28.6%
Paterson 16,548 17,738 7.2%
San Francisco 16,489 16,532 0.3%
Philadelphia 15,348 11,236 -26.8%
Buffalo 14,872 7,217 -51.5%
Camden 14,205 9,091 -36.0%
St. Louis 14,049 5,622 -60.0%
Providence 13,911 9,405 -32.4%
Detroit 13,214 6,864 -48.1%
Washington 13,148 9,316 -29.1%
Pittsburgh 12,537 6,025 -51.9%
Cleveland 12,200 6,208 -49.1%
Baltimore 11,875 8,057 -32.2%
Reading 11,224 8,265 -26.4%
Berkeley 10,857 9,810 -9.6%
Wilmington 10,278 6,759 -34.2%
Hartford 10,172 7,052 -30.7%
Bridgeport 9,875 8,750 -11.4%
Minneapolis 9,491 6,964 -26.6%
Elizabeth 9,262 9,918 7.1%
Rochester 9,222 6,145 -33.4%
Syracuse 8,735 5,857 -33.0%
New Haven 8,677 6,561 -24.4%
Average 13,680 10,148 -25.8%
Cities with more than 100,000 residents in 1950 with a population density greater than 7,500.
Source - US Cities With Substantially Same Borders: 1950-2000: Change in Population Density
Interesting considering that it is well known that the US population has sky rocketed since the 50s as in relation the baby boomers births and the children as well as grand children and great grand children they spawned by way of their own parents, who may have lived in what they thought were safer times be it urban or rural.
Oh, and with all those negatives where did those people go?
They didn't just die or disappear across our borders to Canada and Mexico.
Nope, they moved and spread out as into and amongst areas that formerly were rural and urbanized them.
And with that they brought their urban crime as well as developed new population center for crime to exploit.
For a perfect example of this look at Las Vegas.
A desert town that used to be 'rural'.
Good luck winning an argument now today with anyone some 50 yrs. later that Vegas is anything but an urban center. Vegas crime and it's development is the stuff of US history taught in K-12 schools today.
I could go on further but I won't as by now the answer and reason should be abundantly clear; Population growth and as associated density.The U.S. population grew from a little over 4 million people in 1790 to over 281 million in 2000; urban population is estimated to have grown a thousandfold over that period (Exhibit 4-8). The population nearly doubled between 1950 and 2000.
The rates of population and developed land growth over 5-year intervals increased between 1982 and 1997, before declining slightly between 1997 and 2002. Over all four 5-year increments, the amount of developed land increased at nearly twice the rate of the population (Exhibit 4-9). Between 1982 and 2003, the amount of developed land in the U.S. in the 48 contiguous states (not including the District of Columbia) grew by more than 35 million acres, representing a cumulative increase of more than 48 percent. The Census Bureau estimates that during the same period, the population of the 48 states grew by nearly 58 million people, or just over 25 percent (Exhibit 4-10).
Source - Urbanization and Population Change | Report on the Environment Database | US EPA
Bottom line is this, times are different now AND times were different then as in the 50s and prior too.
It just seems like it was safer but really ti wasn't....as a ratio of and in proportion to raw population numbers AND population density per any given urban or rural area you might choose to observe over a 50 yr. time frame.
If you live in a sq. mile where there are just 100 people then crime will be X.
Double, triple, or increase that population number by a factor of ten or more...And yes crime will be markedly expanded and different as well. It matters not that the location be rural or urban.
Same goes for areas that neighbor those where this growth, or contraction phenomenon have occurred. Which is in fact much if not most of the US.
So to those who think and look back to memory of times when crime was lower and lesser, that is a quaint if not wholly factual view of US history as has been parsed.
Today though most every where has everyone and with that crime, thanks to population growth alone never mind urbanization.
Rural land-use change in the conterminous U.S.
Dan Brown (Principal Investigator), University of Michigan; Pierre Goovaerts, BioMedware, Inc.; Kathleen Bergen, University of Michigan
County-level land-use changes from 1950 to 2000, based on censuses of population, housing, and agriculture. A) change in population density; B) change in land area settled at “exurban densities” (i.e., 1 house per 1 to 40 acres); C) change in percent cropland (Brown et al. 2005).
Source - Land-Cover and Land-Use Change (LCLUC) Program - Science Themes - Predictive Land Use Modeling
Crime was existant in the 50s and it is today.
They had gangs and gang related crime as well as drugs and drug related crime and murders, rapists, thugs & thieves and everything else back then as they do today. Only back then there were far less of them and as such less crime as there are in population and associated crime results today.
Just jumping in on this one, but I did read all the posts to make sure I know where we are in this discussion. First, I will leave the God discussion out, many of you have read previous posts by me and should know my stance on that.
Here are my thoughts on how we got where we are today, in no certain order:
- No personal responsibility, everyone is now a victim of something
- No respect for authority/elders
- No accountability for your kids' upbringing
- The wussification of America
- The de-masculization (sp?) of men in America, and no I am not a sexist by any stretch.
- The social engineering that makes being an American "bad"
- Increased population means greater odds of bad things happening
- The increase in news outlets means more opportunity to see what is going on around the country
- More and more Dads not being involved in their kids' lives
- Lack of real role models, not entitled sports stars (they aren't what they used to be anyway)
There are many other reasons I can come up with, but they are based on my beliefs in the God of Abraham and Moses, and the teachings of His Son. The involve many decisions that have been made by our society that I think have led us down a path of ruin,a nd we are still on that path.
"Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt