how far we have come in 50 years...

This is a discussion on how far we have come in 50 years... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 12Rounds I'm going first, due to the overwhelming evidence of the power of prayer, I am canceling my medical appointments, throwing away ...

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  1. #61
    Ex Member Array BuckeyeEric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12Rounds View Post
    I'm going first, due to the overwhelming evidence of the power of prayer, I am canceling my medical appointments, throwing away my VA card, selling my guns, and canceling my automobile insurance. I'm going to pray my way through life. I invite the rest of my believing brethren to do the same .
    AMEN HaHaHa

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    We have turned our country over to lesser men, "Girly Men" I refer to them as. They are a bunch of tattooed, body-pierced freaks for whom a dose of manhood training comes from watching episodes of Dawson's Creek or Queer as Folk, instead of growing up on the Westerns and movies I watched as a kid with stars like John Wayne, Glenn Ford & Robert Duvall....... I learned my morals and values from my Dad and my Grandfathers who were both WWII veterans and real men in every sense of the word. Most of these "Girly Men" don't even know who their real fathers are, and if they do, chances are they are divorced, or worse yet they are one of these liberal-hippie types who think their sons should get more in touch with their "feminine side".........
    Speaking as a "tattoed, body-pierced freak" who has never seen an episode of Dawson's Creek, or Queer as Folk, learned my morals and values from my Dad and Grandfathers (both WWII vets and real men, by the way), and who has nothing girly or liberal-hippie about me, I'd just like to ask, make wild generalizations much?

    Maybe the problem is backwoods, redneck, hillbillies who grew up on westerns and probably have intimate relations with livestock.

  4. #63
    Member Array Henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    First off, I agree with you Buckeye that I feel God has no place in schools. Religion has been excuse for a lot of terror throughout the centuries.
    I will just use this quote as a starting point, I'm not picking in Cycler in particular! Also, this turned out to be a long post, and somewhat meandering in nature, my apologies.

    I think there tends to be a misunderstanding about what religion is, and as a result it is generally referred to as a belief in some sort of god; whether Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or whatever flavor. However, a proper understanding is that religion is a belief system that involved an understanding of the reason and purpose, etc., of the universe/creation we exist in. Understanding that religion is a belief system, and not specifically a belief in a god, is important to understand the relationship of religion and, for example, schools.

    Currently there is much talk about getting religion (meaning God) out of schools, but the reality is that removing God out of our schools just replaces one religion with another. So, instead of a religion that believes in God, we have one that believes in no god. However, both systems of religion are based on a belief system, and it is important that we understand what that belief system is before we judge it or accept it.

    Currently the prevalent religion being exercised in our schools is Secular Humanism (and it is officially recognized as a religion by the US government). This religion starts with the basis that there is no god, and all actions are a result of natural processes. From this belief system we have evolution. The whole premise of humanism (also called atheism) and evolution is that there is, and cannot be, a god, nor any super-natural (non-natural based) processes.

    Just like religions base their premises on the existence of a god, humanism bases it's premise on the lack of a god. Either one is a belief system, because when it comes down to it just as, for example, Christianity cannot prove the existence of God, neither can humanists prove there is no God. Therefore both are a belief system. In other words, a religion.

    It is also necessary to understand that evolution is not science in the strict use of the word. Science involves the testing of hypothesis via repeatable experiments. There is nothing about the past that can be tested, experimented with, or repeated. This means that what we think happened in the past is based on interpretation of the effects that past has had on what is present with us now. But interpretation involves extrapolating incomplete data, and such extrapolations will invariably be based on our current expectations and beliefs regarding that past. Evolution is an understanding of the past based on the belief system called secular humanism, just as Creation is the understanding of the past based on the Bible. Both have a starting point based on assumptions, or beliefs.

    Regarding religion being the basis of terrorism throughout history, I would agree, considering the explanation of what religion is as I described it above. Religion has been much misused to justify horrendous acts throughout history, but so have many bases' of power. If one includes Marxism, which is based on secular humanism, in this area of thought we can see how much evil has been done by this religion also. Hitler also excused his evil dealings with the Jews based on evolutionary thinking (since the Jews were, in his thinking, an inferior race, he was just helping natural selection along by getting rid of them. The same thinking allowed the sterilization of handicapped persons, and experiments with/on them). Neither Marxists nor Nazis believed in God, yet we see much evil perpetrated by them.

    If we now move ahead with our thinking of religions, and recognizing that ALL people are religious (have a belief system that directs their own thinking and interpretations) then it becomes important to understand the reality of the underlying beliefs, and the consequences of holding those beliefs.

    In today's political climate we find ourselves fighting a government with ideologies based on communism/Marxism and socialism. We understand those ideologies to be wrong because they are based on incorrect premises. In other words we find that the underlying belief system regarding socialism and communism is not for us, and we reject it. Secular Humanism's belief system does not have an overarching authority system, and as such each person defines their own morality and standards. This is what has promoted the idea of relativism, with such resulting notions as the Constitution being a "living" document that changes with the times, and that morality is relative: "what is bad for you is not necessarily bad for me". Evolution promotes the idea that everything has "just happened" and is not much more than a cosmic accident or happenstance. Where in that idea is a value to life? Where is responsibility to anyone else? Why is it wrong to kill others if we're all accidents anyway, and if the killer thinks it just proves he is more fit than the victims? Following the beliefs to their logical conclusion can be startling.

    Too many people think that removing God from classrooms takes religion out of our schools -- it doesn't, it replaces it with another. Our country has been built on a foundation of Christian principles and morals, and those are what propelled this country into the best, and most prosperous, place on earth. Those are being ripped out from under the fabric of our society and being replace by other principles and morals. We need to understand the consequences of that replacement, especially in the light that history sheds on previous uses of these other principles and morals.

  5. #64
    Member Array ezenbrowntow's Avatar
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    It's so easy to get way off base here. So before we get into a battle of stereotypes and accusations, let's get back on track. If you're going from Kansas to Canada, you don't have to just start off going the wrong way to end up in Mexico. A bunch of small wrong turns can get you there too.

    I think the explosion in media has led to a greater amount of information available to the public. Where normally you'd only here the "big news" and your local stuff, now you're getting all of it from everywhere. Watch any news medium, all you're going to hear for the most part is the bad stuff. It's leads to a bit more paranoia, a bit more anxiety. Fear sets in. People start locking doors.........on and on we could go.

    Kids are getting information at a much earlier age and doing things faster and faster. 14 is the new 18. Is it that kids are "worse"? Not necessarily. I remember how much trouble I had to go through to get a Playboy or a Penthouse when I was in junior high. Now any 4th grader can see boobs with a few clicks of a mouse. A lot of things that were passed down as "rite of passage", can be googled and discovered online.

    I believe our society has also grown into a "me first" society. Everyone wants to blame the current administration or the current generation, but this has been going on for years, hell decades even. I think everyone's intention was good, but it has just got out of hand. The "depression era" folks wanted their kids to have it better than they did. And their kids wanted the same for their kids, and so on and so on. The bar keeps getting set a little higher. Those kids get used to having a certain amount, and down the line it goes.

    Used to Dad worked and Mom stayed home. In an attempt to "get ahead" Mom starts working. Prices adjust and now it becomes the norm. Now Mom has to work. Dual income isn't a luxury, it's a necessity. More and more is crammed into life. There is less time to get more done. Dad used to come home from work and play with the kids. The house work was already done. Now it's shared. Mom and Dad both come home from work, juggle the kids, housework, activites, etc. Family time is much harder to come by now.

    Everyone wants to blame Republicans or Democrats, but let's just call a spade a spade. It's politicians. Every term, no matter which party is on office, they give a little more of the Constitution away. It's not a right or left issue, it's a power and greed issue. Somewhere along the way, we started passing our debt onto the future. We no longer backed our money with gold.

    While easy to blame it on Washington, our lifestyles started changing too. Financing slowly became the way to "move on up" if you will. Sacrifice gave way to interest rates. We've slowly let greed eat away at us. Some cling to the hope that the United States of today is what it used to be. It isn't. Not just on a moral highground or anything along those lines, just on a basic economic playing field. We aren't the lone super power we used to be. The playing field has become much more level.

    The last 50 years aren't about one thing here or one thing there. It's a little bit of everything. I could turn this into a 200 page dissertion in a heart beat. But rather than loom and gloom over "the way things used to be", try and be a part of the solution. Worry less about those things you can't control and do something worthwhile in those things you can. Everyone of us can remember someone that helped shape them into who they are today. Be that for somebody else.
    Our kindness may be the most persuasive argument for that which we believe.

    -Gordon B. Hinckley-

  6. #65
    Member Array MSGTTBAR's Avatar
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    For all of you who think this country was not founded on Christian Principles, consider the following. Remember that Preambles are the reason for documents, not the hearts of documents.


    The Preambles of all 50 States Of The United States:


    Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.

    Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.

    Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

    Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

    California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom.

    Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

    Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.

    Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.

    Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...

    Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

    Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance .. Establish this Constitution.

    Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.

    Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

    Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.

    Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution.

    Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.

    Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

    Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

    Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... And imploring His aid and direction.

    Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

    Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe ... In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction ..

    Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.

    Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:

    Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

    Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness .. Establish this Constitution .

    Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ...

    Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. Establish this Constitution.

    Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution ..

    New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

    New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

    New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty

    New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

    North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those

    North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

    Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common

    Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ..

    Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..

    Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance

    Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

    South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

    South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties .

    Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

    Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

    Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.

    Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to .enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ..

    Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator .can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other .

    Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution

    West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ...

    Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility

    Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution.

    After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the prospect that maybe, the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong!

    "Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." - William Penn

    GOD BLESS AMERICA
    Life is too short to be serious!

  7. #66
    Ex Member Array Oldskoolfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    The reason is that we have gone away from the Biblically based moral values upon which this nation was founded. It shows up in all areas of society from the sexual immorality to the lack of concern for human life.
    Men are lovers of self, haters of God, and without natural affection.

    I don't see it getting better, and so we will have to adjust to the violence and reprobation of this society. Each of us can do what is right, but cannot control the actions and attitudes of others.

    It is true that once we did not have to lock our doors or be afraid for our women and children to be out alone after dark, but those days are gone forever.

    Regards,
    Jerry
    So the Biblical principles of slavery, discrimination against the poor who could not afford land, discrimination against women, anti-paganism, anti-Catholicism, anti-Native American practices, and various other biblical principles? What sexual immorality, like Jefferson and his slave wenches? Wasn't he married?

    Please.

    But the fact is that as we have become more secular we have seen crime going down. I think neither has anything to do with the other unless you have an agenda. Europe has a lower violent crime rate then the USA but they are also more secular. So does Saudi Arabia, but they are much less secular.

  8. #67
    Ex Member Array Oldskoolfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSGTTBAR View Post
    For all of you who think this country was not founded on Christian Principles, consider the following. Remember that Preambles are the reason for documents, not the hearts of documents.

    SNIPPED FOR EASE OF READING


    GOD BLESS AMERICA
    A lot of those are the Pre-ambles to the states not the US Constitution. But it does not specifically mention the Christian God, does it? Also many of the Founding Fathers were Masons. An order which is very secular in nature. It is also suspected that many of the Founding Fathers were secularists.

  9. #68
    Distinguished Member Array Gunnutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    This is not a discussion about Creation vs. Evolution. Let's not beat that one to death.

    This is a discussion about why you think the country has taken the path that it has.

    Get it back on track, and drop what cannot be proven. If it persists, then this topic will be closed.
    Were we talking about respect!
    We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Lack of personal responsibility. Lack of respect. Lack of the concept of integrity and honor. You spend a few generations spitting on the more mature, experienced folks in a society, and you end up with a generation that disrespects wisdom, experience and those who have it; disrespect of parents; disrespect of education; disrespect others, generally; and, disrespect of themselves.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #70
    Ex Member Array BuckeyeEric's Avatar
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    I think the last couple pages of comments are really good. I love a good discussion!

  12. #71
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    Lack of personal responsibility. Lack of respect. Lack of the concept of integrity and honor. You spend a few generations spitting on the more mature, experienced folks in a society, and you end up with a generation that disrespects wisdom, experience and those who have it; disrespect of parents; disrespect of education; disrespect others, generally; and, disrespect of themselves.
    That about covers it.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  13. #72
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    I watched a teacher on the news today. She said that something has to be done in Kansas City because kids are not only attacking each other, but they are attacking teachers. It is no longer a safe place to work.

    She also said that the school board is ignoring the problem.

    This is really messed up.
    The school board is afraid of being sued by the little brats parents.and a lot of parents have no idea where their kids are and what there up to. The main problems these days is there is the easy access to drugs.Some times the parents are doing drugs along with the kids.
    there are a lot of kids who are felons by the time they reach 21.

  14. #73
    Ex Member Array Oldskoolfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Lack of personal responsibility. Lack of respect. Lack of the concept of integrity and honor. You spend a few generations spitting on the more mature, experienced folks in a society, and you end up with a generation that disrespects wisdom, experience and those who have it; disrespect of parents; disrespect of education; disrespect others, generally; and, disrespect of themselves.
    Ahh but what about their parents? Aren't they responsible for not raising their kids right and respect?

  15. #74
    Ex Member Array 12Rounds's Avatar
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    Henry,
    Secular Humanism is not a religion. Check your P.M.'s I sent you a link that will help you to understand the difference.
    Here's a piece of that article for everyone else.
    One argument often used by fundamentalists is that the Supreme Court has ruled that secular humanism is a religion. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, Justice Hugo Black wrote in a footnote that:

    ”Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God is Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, secular humanism, and others.”

    As a footnote, it qualifies as an obiter dictum — this means that it is simply a personal observation of the judge, and hence is only incidental to reaching the opinion. It has no real weight when it comes to legal precedent and cannot be properly considered the “decision” of the court. In accordance with this, in the 1994 9th Circuit Court decision in Peloza v. Capistrano it was ruled that the Supreme Court had never “held that evolutionism or secular humanism are ‘religions’ for Establishment Clause purposes,” essentially refuting the argument made by the fundamentalists.

    Another argument commonly offered for the idea that secular humanism is a religion is through reference to the devotion which secular humanists have for their principles and beliefs. Presumably, the defining characteristic of a religion is a person’s zeal and earnestness — but is that a valid way to understand what religion is? As Paul Kurtz has written:

    Is feminism a religion? Are we devoted to it? Is communism a religion? Is libertarianism a religion? Libertarians are devoted to the free market and actively support it. Is vegetarianism a religion? It seems to me if we were to use the term religion in that way, its definition becomes so wide that it applies to everything. If you’re a devout pinochle player, if your whole life is spent playing pinochle, are you religious in that sense? By such a definition, religion applies to everything and to nothing. It’s a misuse of the language, and it makes no sense.”
    NEW SECTION BELOW
    The following is from the Moynihan Report . It's a report from the 60's ,dealing with black families/ communities and their issues but if you read it you will see that much of it applies to all people. The report is very long and thorough but it does a great job of examining and explaining many of the problems plaguing society today.
    The link starts on Chapter Two as that is where it starts to be more universal.

    U.S. Department of Labor -- History -- Chapter II. The Negro American Family

    "The role of the family in shaping character and ability is so pervasive as to be easily overlooked. The family is the basic social unit of American life; it is the basic socializing unit. By and large, adult conduct in society is learned as a child.
    A fundamental insight of psychoanalytic theory, for example, is that the child learns a way of looking at life in his early years through which all later experience is viewed and which profoundly shapes his adult conduct."

  16. #75
    Ex Member Array 12Rounds's Avatar
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    To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say there are nothing, or that there is no soul, no angels, no god. I cannot reason otherwise...I am satisfied, sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which we have no evidence

    -Thomas Jefferson

    The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Lighthouses are more useful than churches

    -Benjamin Franklin

    This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it

    -John Adams

    As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how it has happened that millions of fables, tales, legends have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed

    -John Adams

    And here's James Madison,

    [1751-1836] American president and political theorist. Popularly known as the "Father of the Constitution." More than any other framer he is responsible for the content and form of the First Amendment. also see 'First Amendment' section of the 'Law & Government' section

    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

    "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774

    "...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819

    "Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

    If anything this country was founded on Greek and Enlightenment principles.
    No matter how bad the fundamentalists among us wish that they had their own theocracy, it's just not so.
    There was a time when the church was all powerful and religion ruled the world. We call that "The Dark Ages".

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    Replies: 3
    Last Post: May 14th, 2009, 02:31 PM
  5. Only 10 years
    By DaveH in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: May 5th, 2009, 05:37 PM

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