Drawing While Driving

This is a discussion on Drawing While Driving within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Real Scenario, but it happened to my brother, not myself. My brother is an Eagle Scout, works for the state, long time CC permit holder ...

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Thread: Drawing While Driving

  1. #1
    Member Array roalho's Avatar
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    Drawing While Driving

    Real Scenario, but it happened to my brother, not myself. My brother is an Eagle Scout, works for the state, long time CC permit holder and is cool as a cucumber, head wise.

    Early 90's, he's driving his ragtop Jeep on I-84 somewhere near Boise, ID. Along comes a BMW full of punks, presumably minors in a parents car, and they are being belligerent. Motioning out the windows, veering at my bro's jeep, getting ahead and brake-checking him, punks out just to be punks. Remember, they're travelling at highway speed.

    After a couple miles of this, he's feeling very uncomfortable with the situation and draws his .40 cal H&K USP, and points it at them as they come up along side.

    WHAM! They slam on the brakes, and he never sees them again.

    My opinion is he handeled it well and properly, considering the circumstances. I don't know if he called the police and reported his drawing a weapon, I'll have to ask him next time we talk.

    So...What do you think? Was this an appropriate time to draw?

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  3. #2
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    Hmm, depending on Idaho law the could be considered "brandishing", not good.
    Worse yet if the punks had called 911 telling them of a motorist pointing a gun at them, and not admitting their part in the encounter.
    If it were me I may have unholstered and placed the firearm in easy reach but I doubt if I would have shown the weapon at that point.
    Highway speeds in a rag top 4x4 can be more dangerous than the average vehicle but, I'm still not sure I would have pointed a gun at them. I probably would have called 911, reported what was going on and the location, along with letting them know I was legally armed.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    My opinion is that he is lucky the punks didn't call the cops and have him spend years in jail.

    This topic has been discussed pretty often. On the highway at night and alone is pretty much a nightmare scenario. He said-she said, but you're the nutcase (or your brother) waving the gun around.

    Today, it is pretty easy. Get on the cell (everyone should have one, no excuses...even deactivated ones can call 911) and report it, and do everything you can to evade such idiots. They'll get you killed or incarcerated, neither of which is on my bucket list.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

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    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    Depending on where they were. If a rural area, may have been justified.

    If near an exit, maybe could have pulled off

    Early 90's, probably no cell phones back then. Or limited service.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
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    Member Array roalho's Avatar
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    I think I found the current brandishing code in Idaho:

    "Every person who, not in necessary self-defense, in the presence of two (2) or more persons, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon in a rude, angry and threatening manner, or who, in any manner, unlawfully uses the same, in any fight or quarrel, is guilty of a misdemeanor. ~ I.C. 18-3303"

    So I guess the arguable point would be whether or not it was "necessary self defense"?

    And yeah, rural southern Idaho, early 90's, cell phone was probably not an option.

    He certainly felt is was necessary at the time, I'm sure.

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    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Secondhand judgment call are next to worthless. If he has one hand active on phone and eyes on phone trying to dial with nun cases tagging him he may not of survived what could have happened next.

    I have seen a number of road rage cases of late. It happens quick and is very intense for a short time. I can understand why a person would go to personal defense mode when threatened with nut case drivers. At high speed crashes and possible death is only a few seconds away and your life to some degree is in the hands of some nut case playing tag and brake check. Point is there may not be time to call 911 or even get out of the way of a nut case, and showing them possible use of force may be the only thing that stops them. I am not saying it is the correct thing to do but I am saying that it may be the only option in those few seconds or minutes of high speed super stress.

    If you can get a plate number call in after it is over an report. If you have second person with you have them call in and report. In a case of road rage or just nut case drivers I dough they would try to get victim plate number unless they are looking for a way to get insurance money from victim. IMO YMMV

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    Member Array Cycler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roalho View Post
    So...What do you think? Was this an appropriate time to draw?
    Absolutely not. Where was the imminent threat to life or limb? Stuff like that gives CC a bad name.

    He should have slammed on the brakes 5 minutes before that to get the heck out of there. If that didn't shake them, call the cops and tell them what's going on.

    BTW, if real, this video is kind of funny (if it's real). He should have called the cops first and shouldn't have been flipping them off or talking to them at all but other than that, pretty good.

    City Slicker Pulls Gun - Funny Videos, Funny Video Clips, Funny Movies, Viral Videos

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    Member Array roalho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    Absolutely not. Where was the imminent threat to life or limb?

    snip
    A vehicle is considered a deadly weapon, no? He was being singled out and harrassed with a deadly weapon. Seems pretty obvious to me. Stopping could have been a mistake too, as the assailants could have stopped as well, and then what?

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    Member Array Cycler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roalho View Post
    A vehicle is considered a deadly weapon, no? He was being singled out and harrassed with a deadly weapon. Seems pretty obvious to me. Stopping could have been a mistake too, as the assailants could have stopped as well, and then what?
    Doesn't seem obvious to me at all and I doubt a jury would see it that way. He was definitely being harassed, but I don't see the situation as escalated to a degree to require deadly force. I would only draw if I was prepared to shoot right after drawing.

    I think in any situation where brandishing stops the threat, before you draw, you need to know in your mind if it would be a "good shoot" if you had pulled the trigger. If it wouldn't have been, you could get popped for aggravated assault.

    In reality, there's probably a little more leeway for incidents where you draw but don't shoot but I firmly believe that's the mindset you should have: only draw if you're prepared to shoot at that instant. If you're not prepared to shoot, don't draw.

    That said, I don't think you should automatically commit to shooting during the draw phase of the attack. If things change while you're drawing e.g. attacker sees the draw and runs away, you don't necessarily have to shoot.

  11. #10
    Member Array roalho's Avatar
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    Knowing my bro, I'm sure he was prepared to shoot. He would not have drawn if he wasn't feeling very threatened at the time. Heresay, I know, but growing up when and where we did, with a father who's an avid hunter and a mother involved in LE, we KNEW the serious nature of guns and had had it drilled into us from day one that you don't ever point a gun unless you're serious about using it.

    I'm being careful not to fall into a "defending my brother" mode with this discussion, and keeping an open mind, but I still truly feel he was justified, at least based on his version of the story. Again, heresay, I know.

    To me, it's a no brainer that the carload of aggressors, probably with the "pack mentality" thing going full throttle, had all ready committed vehicular assault (a felony, I think), and seemed eager and willing to prolong the encounter, perhaps even escalate it.

    I do respect your opinion, however, I just don't happen to share it at the moment.

  12. #11
    Member Array Cycler's Avatar
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    So let me ask you this: what do you think the outcome would have been had the driver of the beemer not seen the gun and your brother shot one of the passengers?

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    Distinguished Member Array BlueNinjaGo's Avatar
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    He should have pulled to the side of the road for a minute or two and let them be on their way.

    Worst case scenerio? They stop as well. Maybe get out of their vehicle and approach his.

    At least THEN he would have more of a right to use deadly force... (I'm not a lawyer or LEO though...)

    But in TX the castle doctrine applies to our vehicles... so I would pull over and let them leave... and if they tried to attack me then I'd defend myself...

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    Member Array bwhunter65's Avatar
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    I agree with bluenija pull over or get off at an exit at least this way if they come back you are on better grounds to defend yourself.

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    Member Array roalho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    So let me ask you this: what do you think the outcome would have been had the driver of the beemer not seen the gun and your brother shot one of the passengers?
    Troublesome, no doubt. I'm starting to smell what you guys are cooking. Still though, my brother was in their sights first, in a manner of speaking.

  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    Given the circumstances, I'd suggest two possible alternatives.

    First, show the gun, but don't point it at them, that might give him a little bit of defense if it went to court on brandishing.

    Second. There is no way a Jeep can outrun a BMW, but it can go places the BMW cannot, so I say slow down, give them the chance to desist, but if they persevere, might be time for some off-roading!
    God is love (1 John 4:8)

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