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Concern with being shot by another CC'er?

4K views 48 replies 38 participants last post by  KSDeputy 
#1 ·
I'm usually not into hyphothetical situations, but due to the growing number of carry permit holders that could increase the odds of something like this really happening...this one has me thinking "what if"??? Keep in mind this is just one of many possible scenarios.

Let's say you are in a parking lot and are forced to present, but not fire your weapon to stop an attacker with a pipe, crowbar, etc. (Please I'm not looking for a shoot or don't shoot arguement). At the same moment another CC'er is exiting his car and only sees you with your gun drawn, but does not realize you are on the defense. The next thing you see is him drawing down on you!!!

What would you do?
 
#2 ·
Anything is a possibility and this is one although I think very remote. From my perspective I see another attacker only this one has a gun not a pipe/crowbar. Maybe this is where one of those CC badges would come in handy. (Joking folks, not trying to hijack the thread.) Anyway I am now being attacked from two sides. Let's hope the guy with the gun doesn't come at me shooting and I can somehow defuse the situation .
 
#3 ·
I think it is a valid fear, which is part of why I would be calling the police asap after I pulled my weapon. I think some firearms owners and CCW'ers have something akin to a "white hat" mentality, where they just look for an instance to use their weapon, trying to get their name in the papers or some such thing (I'm not exactly sure). I don't know how to fix that issue though.

So I guess I'd hope that my military haircut, clean shaven appearance, and decent clothing would be enough to make them think that I was some sort of gov't employee (which I am). And hopefully the BG would be some shaggy, ill-kempt druggie looking type, and the CCW'er would have some common sense. It's really about the best answer I have for now, maybe this thread will give me some better ones.
 
#4 ·
I think the case your presenting is a good reason why if you present your gun but don't shoot, you should be talking very loudly, giving direct commands on what the person you drew down on should be doing.

If your giving loud commands to the person and they are complying. Drop the crow bar, back off I don't want any trouble, get on your knees, or lay flat on the ground away from your weapon, ok fill in the other various number of commands one might give here.

But the point is, the other person if they come out of a store or whereever and see someone with a gun drawn giving directions for someone else to comply in a non offensive manner, well they shouldn't be drawing down on you.

Would you, or would you observe to make sure that the person with the gun was only making the other submit? I feel most would wait the 1 to 2 seconds it would take to figure out what was going on.
 
#9 ·
I think the case your presenting is a good reason why if you present your gun but don't shoot, you should be talking very loudly, giving direct commands on what the person you drew down on should be doing.

If your giving loud commands to the person and they are complying. Drop the crow bar, back off I don't want any trouble, get on your knees, or lay flat on the ground away from your weapon, ok fill in the other various number of commands one might give here.
^This...

...and this. V
I would shout, "Call 911."
If I had to pull a firearm on someone, I'd be shouting to anyone nearby to call 911.
 
#5 ·
If some other CC'er can't tell the difference between a thug in a black hoodie with a crowbar or a knife facing an elderly white-haired lady and her husband growling out orders to 'back off'...we're going to have problems.
Hey, it's a 'dog eat dog' world out there, and I will deal with the crime forced upon me and all the possible tangents as they happen.:comeandgetsome::twak:
 
#10 ·
If some other CC'er can't tell the difference between a thug in a black hoodie with a crowbar or a knife facing an elderly white-haired lady and her husband growling out orders to 'back off'...we're going to have problems.
Hey, it's a 'dog eat dog' world out there, and I will deal with the crime forced upon me and all the possible tangents as they happen.:comeandgetsome::twak:
retsup99...Ms. Orangevol isn't going to appreciate you calling her an elderly white-haired lady...LOL :rofl:
 
#6 ·
This is when one of those CCW badges would come in real handy...

:haha:


In all honesty, I don't know that there is a good answer given that sort of hypothetical. The upside is it's probably unlikely that you would have that kind of convergence in the first place. I would say your best bet would be to run like a bat outta Hades since you would really have no idea if it was another CCW holder or the guy's accomplice.
 
#8 ·
I agree with what is said about being very vocal.

If the second carrier gets out of his vehicle and before he even sees you holding your would-be assailant at gun point he hears you screaming, "CALL THE POLICE!" That's automatically going to identify you as someone who is okay with the police being on the scene (usually a roll reserved for the good guy).

Keep the communication going ("Call 911!", "Don't move.", "I need an officer.", "Drop your weapon.", "HELP!"), even when the police arrive, and keep yourself out of suspicion.
 
#11 ·
Concerned about being shot by another CCW'er? Hadn't even considered the possibility. I'm in CA! The chances of that happening here today are only slightly better than the Earth being hit by a killer comet! Finally found ONE reason to take solace in CA's stupid gun laws. (That single reason is sure to be lonely for a long time.)

Now, being serious, that situation will likely change significantly in 2010 as the judiciary is on hold in CCW issuance cases until Heller II is decided, incorporating Heller I. Then our "may issue" will likely be modified by court ruling to force the inclusion of personal defense as good cause. That will effectively make CA a "shall issue" state. Then I might have to worry about it. But honestly, no, I don't worry about getting shot by another CCW'er.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I've thought about this as well believe it or not. I think it is another great reason to take the approach of being a good witness before trying to save the day of someone you don't know, especially when you don't know the situation fully. Not only could impulsively intervening injure a law abiding ccw'er, imagine the consequences if it was an off duty cop with the gun out.
:nono:
 
#13 ·
IT's a concern I have.....

Having worked in the system... we've been arresting someone on a warrant , considered dangerous, and having been shot at by them .... and add being in normal clothes ... a Sheriff's officer came into the situation (not knowing) and drawing down on us. On top of that, he was a very nervous "rookie"... ugh... who was on his first patrol by himself.
 
#14 ·
I have often posted that my greatest fear, when off duty, is being shot by a fellow LEO. Now add the additional CCW Permit, or whatever name it's called in the various locales, to the conundrum and you have a recipe for disaster.

That is one of many reasons for me to be reticent in engaging another party with a firearm. The only advice I can give on this subject is, If you don't know what's going on, stay the heck out of it!

What you think is happening may be 180 degrees from the truth. You need to be 100% positive, or not get involved.

Biker
 
#20 ·
If you don't know what's going on, stay the heck out of it!

What you think is happening may be 180 degrees from the truth. You need to be 100% positive, or not get involved.
Both of those points should be deeply embedded in everyones mind, first and foremost. :hand10:
 
#16 ·
Depends on the situation. Age, gender, stance. All of those would greatly influence my reaction as the "second CCW".

Pardon my pragmatism, but I'm far more likely to stick my neck out to aide the "white haired elderly lady" than any man.
 
#19 ·
The short answer is this: IT'S NOT YOUR PROBLEM!

If you see something like that, get on the cell phone and leave your gun the frack alone. It is there IF you feel that YOUR life is in danger!

You are not a cop!

If you want to save the world, go join the local PD and be a cop. Otherwise, call and observe, be a good witness.
 
#37 ·
Maybe a felony in NH, but not here in TN...

39-17-1322. Defenses. — A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part if the person possessed, displayed or employed a handgun in justifiable self-defense or in justifiable defense of another during the commission of a crime in which that person or the other person defended was a victim.
 
#25 ·
For the record, I would never recommend drawing on someone. If that was inferred from what I wrote, I am sorry for the confusion.
There are plenty of other options besides a) Barney Fife and b) "stay the heck out of it"
 
#27 ·
Being cough in a cross fire between a defender and robber could be most painful. I believe that once you enter into the fight not being known by either side of the fight you are very subject to being shot by both good and bad guys. Unless my life or love ones life was in direct danger or the situation was very clear (read below) I would do my best to stay out of the mix and be the best witness I can.

In the event of a robbery in say Stop and Rob with me in back of store getting a soda, and young female clerk facing a masked gunman with big gun and evil in his eyes. If I have a clear shot and believe the gunman will pull the trigger on the clerk then I would shoot to try to save life. If he would shoot the clerk there is nothing to stop him from sweeping the store and shooting anyone else that could be a witness before leaving. Also I do not know if I could live with my self if I just stood there and watched the cold blooded murder having the power to stop it and did nothing.
 
#28 ·
Simple....shoot first.
 
#29 ·
Unfortunately I would probably shoot the CCer, and then maybe the guy with the crowbar. This would be an instinctive reaction, not a calculated decision.

I assume the person who draws a gun on me will shoot me, and I don't want to wait around to find out whether he will or not as I shout verbal commands to two different people.
 
#31 ·
Unfortunately I would probably shoot the CCer, and then maybe the guy with the crowbar. This would be an instinctive reaction, not a calculated decision...
Yes, it would be pretty hard for you to tell the difference between Joe-Save-The-World-CCWer and the bad guy's backup.

Here's my vote of appreciation for the instuctors and folks here who stress "don't get involved unless you know 100% what is going on".
 
#33 ·
The CCer getting out of the car should be dialing the magic digits and trying as hard as possible not to get involved because it does not directly involve him. Call me cold hearted, but if its not me or mine that's in trouble... I'm staying out of it besides calling the 5-0.
 
#34 ·
isn't there an article somewhere about the dangers of being involved, it was written by cops that have to respond to domestic violence calls. The same situation is faced by cops, ask them how they deal with it. (to state the obvious already...) A gun pointed at someone could mean just about anything without context, if I come across someone with a gun pointed at them I'm dialing 911 first, if I heard something like "give me money" or "come here baby" along with the weapon (and/or the victim screaming something along the lines of HELP) I'm definitely drawing.
 
#39 ·
If my family is with me, I am getting them to safety no matter what is going on. My family comes first. I am of the mind set that it you do not know 100% what is going on you should step away and be a good witness. If you saw one person stabbing another person stab after stab after stab then I would think if you intend to get involved you should NOT use your gun but some other type of deterrent like pepper spray. If you are the kind of person and I do not mean that in a bad way that believes they are a sheep dog here to protect the sheep then you need to have a plan that does not revolve around a gun.
 
#46 ·
If my family is with me, I am getting them to safety no matter what is going on. My family comes first. I am of the mind set that it you do not know 100% what is going on you should step away and be a good witness. If you saw one person stabbing another person stab after stab after stab then I would think if you intend to get involved you should NOT use your gun but some other type of deterrent like pepper spray. If you are the kind of person and I do not mean that in a bad way that believes they are a sheep dog here to protect the sheep then you need to have a plan that does not revolve around a gun.
The part in bold is interesting, but not one I favor.

You are meeting lethal force with less than lethal force. That's not odds for longevity in my book.

Biker
 
#41 ·
I remember we briefly discussed this in my ccw class. I feel it is best that my pistol be used to protect me and the ones I know so if i was not involved i would not draw my weapon just because another person has a gun... I would call the police and find cover.... not in that order. I hope other sheep dogs would do the same. unless you know the whole story find cover or get away
 
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