Christianity and Self Defense

This is a discussion on Christianity and Self Defense within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I must confess I am likely ignorant to discuss the theology of the bible, but we can have a good discussion. Originally Posted by bomber ...

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Thread: Christianity and Self Defense

  1. #31
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    Discussion

    I must confess I am likely ignorant to discuss the theology of the bible, but we can have a good discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    you could fill a book (and many people have) with the things that are not covered in the bible. You're right, it is not prohibited. According to Paul, all things are permissible, but not all things are helpful. All I am saying is that self defense is not supported by Christ. And self defense is not explicity supported by any new testament author. The example of the authors and the disciples is one of pacifism.
    Very true. The New testament's purpose would seem to be to deliver the message of Christ, one of hope, love, and eternal life. Mathew 3:16.

    On the other hand, the old testament is filled with examples where God led and/or encouraged his people to fight. David is but one such example. Since God is a trinity, of which Christ is a part, perhaps we should not say that God's example is one of pacifism, but that Christ's primary purpose in the New testament was to deliver a different message?

    Interesting to note Revelations describes Christ on his return, not as a pacifist, but as a subgatator.

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    and again, the "sell your cloak to buy a sword" verse is constantly misquoted and twisted out of context. I have heard it every time this subject brought up, but never in context with the related scripture from Isaiah and the fulfilment of prophecy. again, christs mention of them was explicitly related to prophecy. he doesnt say anything about actually using the sword.
    Many verses are misquoted and taken out of context. However, I simply don't see where Christ would want is followers to surrender and die for the sake of evil doers intent on killing them. Do you believe Christ would have you put down your weapons and die, rather than defend yourself?

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post

    The only time Christ mentions anything about self defense, it is in favor of pacifism. He commands peter to put away his sword when peter attempts to defend christ. christ commands his followers to turn the other cheek.

    christ does tear up the temple, but the scripture does not mention whether or not christ actually assaulted anyone. just that he turned over tables and drove the money-changers out of the temple.
    Actually, Jesus commands Peter to "put it in it's place", that is put it away (in its sheath) after Peter has already drawn it and cut off the ear of the High Priest's servant. Jesus doesn't command him to throw it away, or not use it at all ever, or that he shouldn't have one.

    It's an acknowledgement that the sword existed, that there is indeed proper use for it, but this was not the proper context for its use; there's no pacifism here, and Jesus certainly could have spoken further against any form of defensive violence if that was His intent, but He did not. (Jesus's mission was not of this Earth.)

    The "turning of the other cheek" is a an another example of context required; it is spoken as pholiosophy of reacting to insults (a back hand slap to the face was considered very insulting) and personal interactions with others, not a mandate for pacifism in the face of violence.

    With regard to chasing out of the temple the moneychangers and animal sellers, this was not the work of some limp-wristed Ned Flanders never aggressive and double never offensive kind of act-Jesus fashioned an ersatz whip and angrily and physically acted against those who were defiling the Temple. Again, hardly pacifistic.

    Soldiers and other "bearers of the sword" were also specifically spoken about by Paul and others-and not that they were to not bear the sword, but rather to act well. Again, no pacifisim here-swords and weapons and those who wielded them had their legitmate, lawful and Biblically-acceptable roles then, and they most certainly still do now.

    C-

  4. #33
    Member Array Ramen's Avatar
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    But if i sell my cloak to by a glock how am I going to conceal it? :)

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    Many interesting and thoughful replies. As has been stated in many of the posts, short of video and audio, we will NEVER know the truth about anything in the old and new testament. We can believe but we cannot know for a fact. Not trying to be cutesy or disrespectful--just sayin. Comes down to each one of us making up our own minds as to the kind of morals and beliefs that we feel are important in our own lives---in the end, no amount of rabbinical study or theological teaching can supplant that.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Many interesting and thoughful replies. As has been stated in many of the posts, short of video and audio, we will NEVER know the truth about anything in the old and new testament. We can believe but we cannot know for a fact. Not trying to be cutesy or disrespectful--just sayin. Comes down to each one of us making up our own minds as to the kind of morals and beliefs that we feel are important in our own lives---in the end, no amount of rabbinical study or theological teaching can supplant that.
    very true

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    I must confess I am likely ignorant to discuss the theology of the bible, but we can have a good discussion.



    Very true. The New testament's purpose would seem to be to deliver the message of Christ, one of hope, love, and eternal life. Mathew 3:16.

    On the other hand, the old testament is filled with examples where God led and/or encouraged his people to fight. David is but one such example. Since God is a trinity, of which Christ is a part, perhaps we should not say that God's example is one of pacifism, but that Christ's primary purpose in the New testament was to deliver a different message?

    Interesting to note Revelations describes Christ on his return, not as a pacifist, but as a subgatator.



    Many verses are misquoted and taken out of context. However, I simply don't see where Christ would want is followers to surrender and die for the sake of evil doers intent on killing them. Do you believe Christ would have you put down your weapons and die, rather than defend yourself?
    do i think Christ would have us die rather than defend ourselves? absolutely. thats one of many reasons i no longer call myself a christian. like I said before, thats exactly what He and every one of the apostles did, except John, who died in prison.

    in the OT, every instance of God commanding the israelites to violence was as a nation or on behalf of the nation, not as individuals. it was vital that israel survive as a nation in order to preserve the line of david, and thereby making possible the birth of Christ. David ran from saul for years. he had the chance to kill him and he didn't and god honored that. moses killed a man to defend another, and God condemmed him for that.

    levitical law does allow for self defense, but that is an old law that a) was before the coming of Christ and gods new law, which is the law of Love and b) applied to jews as citizens of the nation of israel, not as christians who live under a multitude of different governments and laws and cultures.

    in revelations, christ returns as a badass mother******, and does a lot of killing. but he is acting as God and is exacting his judgement for sin, he is no longer a man setting an example for his followers.

  8. #37
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    Interesting points

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    do i think Christ would have us die rather than defend ourselves? absolutely. thats one of many reasons i no longer call myself a christian. like I said before, thats exactly what He and every one of the apostles did, except John, who died in prison.

    in the OT, every instance of God commanding the israelites to violence was as a nation or on behalf of the nation, not as individuals. it was vital that israel survive as a nation in order to preserve the line of david, and thereby making possible the birth of Christ. David ran from saul for years. he had the chance to kill him and he didn't and god honored that. moses killed a man to defend another, and God condemmed him for that.

    levitical law does allow for self defense, but that is an old law that a) was before the coming of Christ and gods new law, which is the law of Love and b) applied to jews as citizens of the nation of israel, not as christians who live under a multitude of different governments and laws and cultures.

    in revelations, christ returns as a badass mother******, and does a lot of killing. but he is acting as God and is exacting his judgement for sin, he is no longer a man setting an example for his followers.
    Thanks Bomber, I wanted to get a better understanding of where you are coming from.

    As we have said, each of us decides for themselves. When Christ came, he did indeed do away with many of the old testament laws, but not all of them. The 10 Commandments still stand, as on example.

    Anyway, interesting take away on your thoughts, thanks for sharing.

  9. #38
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    I do not believe God wants us to lie down and watch evil truimph, I can't believe that, not for one minute. There is a fine line there and we must be careful when walking it, but there is a line though.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  10. #39
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    To everything, there is a season. Time to kill, time to heal...
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Thanks Bomber, I wanted to get a better understanding of where you are coming from.

    As we have said, each of us decides for themselves. When Christ came, he did indeed do away with many of the old testament laws, but not all of them. The 10 Commandments still stand, as on example.

    Anyway, interesting take away on your thoughts, thanks for sharing.

    no sweat. i'm not trying to tell people that they can't or shouldn't defend themselves. i'm all about it. i'm just describing my understanding of the bible.....

    i appreciate that no one has flamed me for this very unpopular view. you guys are alright

  12. #41
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    Of course you could read the Bible and make a fairly valid argument both ways.
    I'll see if I can make a plausible argument opposite of some above just for the sake of debate.

    If you want to take the Bible literally as THE Word Of God then you cannot "Pick & Choose" which portions of The Word to ignore and which portions to accept as truth. It would be all or nothing.

    If you're going to take the Bible "word for word" and you "own" guns then obviously you possess guns.

    The question at issue here is: Would Christ approve of you defending your life with a firearm.

    The answer would be "NO" since Christ states that you must give up everything that you own or basically you are not getting into Heaven.

    So if you're NOT getting into Heaven because you obviously STILL own things like your computer and your guns then you are just going to either rot here on Earth after you die OR you're going to the other place where the temperatures are much hotter.

    In which case what difference would it make if you practice self-defense or not being as your ultimate goal is to be with Christ but, according to him...that's just not happening for you because nobody these days gives up ALL of their worldly possessions.


    Luke 14:33
    Any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

    Matthew 19:21-24
    Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
    When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
    Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Of course you could read the Bible and make a fairly valid argument both ways.
    I'll see if I can make a plausible argument opposite of some above just for the sake of debate.

    If you want to take the Bible literally as THE Word Of God then you cannot "Pick & Choose" which portions of The Word to ignore and which portions to accept as truth. It would be all or nothing.

    If you're going to take the Bible "word for word" and you "own" guns then obviously you possess guns.

    The question at issue here is: Would Christ approve of you defending your life with a firearm.

    The answer would be "NO" since Christ states that you must give up everything that you own or basically you are not getting into Heaven.

    So if you're NOT getting into Heaven because you obviously STILL own things like your computer and your guns then you are just going to either rot here on Earth after you die OR you're going to the other place where the temperatures are much hotter.

    In which case what difference would it make if you practice self-defense or not being as your ultimate goal is to be with Christ but, according to him...that's just not happening for you because nobody these days gives up ALL of their worldly possessions.


    Luke 14:33
    Any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

    Matthew 19:21-24
    Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
    When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
    Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
    Very true, but in Matthew when that was said, they were to follow him, that is not the same today since he is not here literally to follow as it was meant back then right? I don't think anything can be taken word for word in my humble view since times change if I read this right, not a bible discussion I know, but just trying to make sense of all of this since it is an interesting discussion of Self-Defense and Spirituallity in my book.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  14. #43
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    Guardian makes a good point, as others have pointed out through this discussion, you have to take the scriptures in context. Not every verse of every chapter specifically applies to us in the same way today as it did when it was written to a specific audience. We can learn from all of it, but it does not necessarily mean we must be destitute and own nothing, or go to hell.

    And to Bomber, as far as moses goes, he was not condemned by God for defending the Hebrew, it was for fear of Egyptian law that he fled. And then he also fought off the Medianite shepherds at Jethroe's well to defend Jethroe's daughters. Moses spent his whole life fighting for justice and to free/defend oppressed people. That is the type of man God chose to make the leader of His people. A man that stood up for others and defended them. I think that is an example that we can look at. God commanded him to stand up to Pharoh and demanded to let His people go. Then he wiped out Pharoh's army when he didn't listen and pursued.

    I do NOT believe that Jesus would have us stand by and allow ourselves or others to be harmed or killed. I have found no scripture that specifically states that idea. Some suggest nonviolence and promote peace, but none prohibit self-defense, or the defense of others explicitly. Just because that is what He did, doesn't me that is what we must do. He was doing that to fulfill His Father's will. He died so that we don't have to, and for that reason, I don't believe He would want us to.
    Walk softly ...

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    I honestly don't have a dog in this hunt but, I am just hoping that all members will consider their lives to be worthy and valuable enough to defend from any potentially deady threat.

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    Amen QKShooter. Short, sweet, to the point, and absolutely honest appraisal. In my post I made the point that if we consider ourselves G-d's creation than giving up our life without a struggle for that life is a sin--we are turning our face on him--our life is not for anyone but him to take--and that does not include a slimeball.

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