Christianity and Self Defense

[bomber]

Just because that is what He did, doesn't me that is what we must do. He was doing that to fulfill His Father's will. He died so that we don't have to, and for that reason, I don't believe He would want us to.

He didn't die so that we don't have to. He died for the eternal salvation of his people. Thousands of early christians died deaths more brutal than his, and they went without a fight.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[bomber]

another thing to consider is that Christ is constantly calling his followers "sheep". Think about that in context of what we consider ourselves to be as gunowners.

Christ never commanded anyone to be a wolf. His biblical followers never behaved as wolves. When threatened with their lives, his followers either ran, argued, or submitted. But they never raised a hand to defend themselves.

Also, I never could understand why Christians were so eager to try to postpone their own deaths. I'm not saying that christians should be out there killing themselves. But why try to delay your eternal reward? You believe you are going to heaven when you die. Heaven will be epic. I mean, no matter what your picture of heaven will be, its always better than your current situation. "No more pain, no more sorrow, no more death" right? Then why would you do anything to prevent that from happening? I mean, when I was still a christian, I never prayed for safe travel, or safety in the mission field (I have been on a few trips) or safety anywhere. Why would I be concerned about safety? And why would my christian friends be concerned about my safety? If I die, I've gone to the one place I wanna be. That just does not compute.

[kelcarry]

Hey bomber: Appreciate your replies and respect your comments. I find peace in knowing that I will see my brother and my son and my parents "someday", but I also understand that "today" is not "someday" and my wife and my children and my grandchildren enjoy my life and relish in its love, and it is selfish of me to deprive them of my "today". I will do whatever it takes to maintain that bond and dying is not part of it. Someday will eventually come and it will be by G-d's hand and not some slimeball. G-d Bless You bomber and I wish you a healthy and long life to live for "today".

[MinistrMalic]

another thing to consider is that Christ is constantly calling his followers "sheep". Think about that in context of what we consider ourselves to be as gunowners.

Christ never commanded anyone to be a wolf. His biblical followers never behaved as wolves. When threatened with their lives, his followers either ran, argued, or submitted. But they never raised a hand to defend themselves.

Also, I never could understand why Christians were so eager to try to postpone their own deaths. I'm not saying that christians should be out there killing themselves. But why try to delay your eternal reward? You believe you are going to heaven when you die. Heaven will be epic. I mean, no matter what your picture of heaven will be, its always better than your current situation. "No more pain, no more sorrow, no more death" right? Then why would you do anything to prevent that from happening? I mean, when I was still a christian, I never prayed for safe travel, or safety in the mission field (I have been on a few trips) or safety anywhere. Why would I be concerned about safety? And why would my christian friends be concerned about my safety? If I die, I've gone to the one place I wanna be. That just does not compute.

Bomber I think this is becoming more theology than a firearms discussion, but let me walk down this aisle awhile to assess the ethical ramifications in the spirit of peace with which you've brought it up. If we should speed our trip to heaven, and prolonging life is a bad thing, then logically the most humane and loving thing I could do for another Christian is end their life NOW so that they can begin experiencing heaven.

Obviously, this is what God calls murder. And it's not okay according to those ten recommended suggestions (note the sarcasm...Exodus 20 for any wondering). Why? Because we are made in His image and therefore are valuable in His eyes. He made us to live and to seek life, and protecting and prolonging those days that I may serve Him is part of my responsible management of the life that He has given me.

So I defend life against those who would take it without authorization from above.

And for the record I appreciate the gentle tone of your discussion and your irenic spirit. I welcome discussions such as these!

[bomber]

I don't have a lot else to add. Most people don't change their minds about this kind of thing. I have only changed my mind after abandoning my faith, and I'm certainly not advocating that to anyone. Scriptural interpretation is always going to lead to theological debates that are not easily resolved. But its a priviledge to discuss this kind of subject with people who can remain calm.

[BigStick]

Also, I never could understand why Christians were so eager to try to postpone their own deaths. ... But why try to delay your eternal reward? ...... Then why would you do anything to prevent that from happening?

I would give you this response: I do know where I will go when I die, and for that reason I am not afraid. But I will die on God's terms, not on those of some thug. (yes, I know, God could use the thug, etc... and if that is so, then so be it) God has a plan for each of us, and a work for us to do. There are many lives that I can still impact while on this earth, and I will do my best to touch as many lives as I can.

Another reason that I carry is that while I know where I am going, I can not say the same for those around me at any given time. If I have a chance to save the life of another innocent, who might not be a christian, from a thug, then I will; and give that person a chance to know God in the future.

And yes, thank you for actually having a discussion with reasonable thoughts and conversation. I enjoy sharing differing opinions and information.

[Guardian]

I honestly don't have a dog in this hunt but, I am just hoping that all members will consider their lives to be worthy and valuable enough to defend from any potentially deady threat.

Understood QKShooter.

I am spiritual, I believe in God and Jesus and I'll leave it at that.

Someone mentioned why would we want to put off going to heaven (not exact words), well, there is a point there, but actually, I have somethings I still want to accomplish on this ole earth and I'm not ready yet, so I'll continue to put up the good fight.

Thanks BigStick, I like most just try and make sense of it all and live a good life and be a good person. I have to admit, it's been awhile since a conversation like this has actually been pleasant and I've enjoyed it without it turning into a religious nightmare argument and I everyone here for their mature and great responses.

[ctr]

Slightly off topic, but a good joke I heard somewhere...

Everybody takes the last ride. The only thing you have to decide is which section you're sitting in, smoking, or non-smoking?

[ctr]

another thing to consider is that Christ is constantly calling his followers "sheep". Think about that in context of what we consider ourselves to be as gunowners.

Hey bomber, I gave this example some significant thought over the last day. Here is my take on Christ followers as sheep. Perhaps what Christ is referencing is look to the protector when there is trouble. We, as fathers, and heads of the household, look to Christ for guidance and protection. Our families look to us for guidenace and protection. I am not sure we can apply our concept of sheep in the biblical example.

As for departing this life early, the first thing that popped into my head is the parable of the master and the three servants. The master gave each servant a coin and told them to use it wisely for his benefit. He then departed. The first servant bought and sold and did well. The second servant invested. The third servant buried the coin so he would not lose it. When the master returned, he was only disappointed in the servant who buried the coin. He squandered the opportunity. Forgive me if I have the details wrong on the parable, it has been awhile since I've read it.

Anyway, my point is that we are all here, given an opportunity. None of us knows when we will be called, but we are expected to serve, to grow, and to make wise choices. Really, it comes down to we were each created with a purpose in mind.

What do you think about this?

ps) I forgot to add that all of our reasoning fails to understand the depths of the mystery of God, or his purposes. Yet we continue to try.

[ctr]

Scriptural interpretation is always going to lead to theological debates that are not easily resolved. But its a priviledge to discuss this kind of subject with people who can remain calm.

Very well said. I'm not so much interested in debating as I am discussing. We all tend to surround ourselves with like minded folks, so it is a refreshing change for me to have a good discusion and see another viewpoint. Something I don't often get the privilege of.

I know we have gotten pretty well off topic from the original op post, but the lattitude is much appreciated. And thanks to everyone for keeping the discourse not just civil, but respectful, interesting, and well thought responses. Well done everyone.

[bomber]

Hey bomber, I gave this example some significant thought over the last day. Here is my take on Christ followers as sheep. Perhaps what Christ is referencing is look to the protector when there is trouble. We, as fathers, and heads of the household, look to Christ for guidance and protection. Our families look to us for guidenace and protection. I am not sure we can apply our concept of sheep in the biblical example.

As for departing this life early, the first thing that popped into my head is the parable of the master and the three servants. The master gave each servant a coin and told them to use it wisely for his benefit. He then departed. The first servant bought and sold and did well. The second servant invested. The third servant buried the coin so he would not lose it. When the master returned, he was only disappointed in the servant who buried the coin. He squandered the opportunity. Forgive me if I have the details wrong on the parable, it has been awhile since I've read it.

Anyway, my point is that we are all here, given an opportunity. None of us knows when we will be called, but we are expected to serve, to grow, and to make wise choices. Really, it comes down to we were each created with a purpose in mind.

What do you think about this?

ps) I forgot to add that all of our reasoning fails to understand the depths of the mystery of God, or his purposes. Yet we continue to try.

both of your answers are, in my opinion, very reasonable interpretations of scripture and their application.

[QKShooter]

We need to kinda try real hard to steer this thread back to Christianity & Self-Defense.

[ctr]

Interesting series of articles MinistrMalic. Well written and a good read. I guess for myself, falling into the God helps those who help themselves camp, it really comes down to the authority to act in our defense. I believe we have it if we choose to use it.

[Chunkychuck]

the example that the disciples set for the early church, aside from Peter's one act of violence which was rebuked by christ, is singularly pacifist. Only John died a natural death. The rest were executed and all were led to their deaths without a fight. sometimes they fled, but they never resisted. and there are no biblically recorded instances of early church christians using violence to defend themselves.

They were lead to their deaths by government officials because of their refusal to disavow their faith. I would not see this as an apples to apples comparison to one being attacked by a criminal element. You are correct about no recorded instances of self defense. I believe one can make an argument for it as an extension of the care we are to provide our families. Jesus criticized the Pharisees for their practice of "Corban". Their refusal to help their parents by declaring the money that could be used to help had been dedicated to God. Paul wrote to Timothy and said, "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." And in Ephesians Paul writes, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her." Do these teachings reach to self-defense? At least for me at this point they do. If I have a responsibility to provide for my family materially and emotionally, I can't imagine that responsibility would not also extend to personal protection for them.