One against stampeding sheep

This is a discussion on One against stampeding sheep within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; "A secret the Army doesn't want you to know about..." kidding aside, here's the scenario: You're at a gathering and someone is brandishing a weapon ...

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Thread: One against stampeding sheep

  1. #1
    Member Array Agent47's Avatar
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    One against stampeding sheep

    "A secret the Army doesn't want you to know about..."

    kidding aside, here's the scenario:

    You're at a gathering and someone is brandishing a weapon at you or has already commenced his/her attack. All immediate avenues of retreat are (for the moment) out of the question. You draw to deter/draw to actively engage your assailant. When you draw/shoot, his/her friends or strangers attempt to grab you/assault you/take possession of your firearm. Your new assailants are all unarmed (unless you count car keys and high heels as weapons, the heels part has happened to me once).

    What happens next? Unarmed combatives/weapon retention techniques or more cases of lead poisoning?

    better to ask now than find out for real...

    (note: draw to deter = draw and say a verbal command ie "back off!" whereas draw and shoot = draw and start firing immediately)

    EDIT: misidentification has been averted by saying something along the lines of "ok, seriously, calm down, let's be reasonable here" to brandishing attacker (attempt to de-escalate has already been attempted) or "oh crap" when being charged)
    Last edited by Agent47; November 15th, 2009 at 08:46 PM.
    Medical College of Virginia School of Medicine Class of 2013

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  3. #2
    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    I would never draw to deter......

    but if something happened that caused my firearm to be out and shooting I would not stop firing until there was no longer a threat. So If people are running at me trying to attack and disarm me..well then that is a threat.

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    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent47 View Post
    When you draw/shoot, his/her friends or strangers attempt to grab you/assault you/take possession of your firearm. Your new assailants are all unarmed...
    How do you know that these people are on his side, or other bystanders who are not simply also taking action against "a second shooter" meaning you? Before you get misidentified as part of the original threat, you need to assess the situation to ensure that you are known to be trying to stop the initial assault.

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    Ex Member Array Butch's Avatar
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    Grabbing at the gun would be interpreted as a threat by me.

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    Never draw to deter, draw only if you feel your life is in danger.

    As to the large group of "unarmed" people coming at you. Sorry I think I would consider myself still in danger. Just because you don't see a weapon doesn't mean there isn't one. Remember a mob is more dangerous than 1 person. Anyone who is attempting to disarm me is a danger and will be dealt with as such.

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    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    How do you know that these people are on his side, or other bystanders who are not simply also taking action against "a second shooter" meaning you? Before you get misidentified as part of the original threat, you need to assess the situation to ensure that you are known to be trying to stop the initial assault.


    you should probably have most of that figured out BEFORE you pull the firearm and start shooting. Meaning you should already know whats going to happen after you take down the first attacker...retreat,engage other targets,etc. If you pulled the gun,you probably already have all the threats identified. Well you should have anyway.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Turn around and shear the sheep. Let nothing movable stand in your way.

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    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    Sorry, but this is where the term "Fog of War" would apply greatly. You have mulitple threats of both lethal and nonlethal, and almost no time to tell the differance. In that kind of situation you are going to have a mix of sheep rushing you out of panic to get away from the original threat, sheepdogs thinking you are a secondary threat, and wolves that see you as a threat.

    Only think I can say is Pray you shoot the BG, and the GG realize you are not a threat.
    This is a nightmare for me, because in the first minute of this kind of situation a lot of mistakes are going to happen for the simple reason BG do not have flashing neon signs tell you who's the BG, and GG can't tell you are a GG too.
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch View Post
    Grabbing at the gun would be interpreted as a threat by me.
    Yup.

    Two things are clearly illustrated, contrived though it is: the importance of having sufficient distance between me and the threat (or potential threat); and the nature of "junkyard dog" fights, in which one or more of the combatants can change sides and quickly become an ugly problem.

    Anyone actively attacking/engaging as a threat is going to be treated as one, irrespective of whether that person was an apparent onlooker just a moment ago. If you want to contribute to the mob's attack and direct the mob's power on me, then you're going to be seen as a mob member at that moment. Life's really simple, in that regard.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; November 16th, 2009 at 04:03 AM. Reason: grammar
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Sheep don't attack they run cower and wet themselves
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Turn around and shear the sheep. Let nothing movable stand in your way.
    I love it. There's clearly no doubt in Ram Rod's mind what he'll do here, and I'm certain that he won't hesitate. I think it's important to 'pre-decide' what course of action that you'll take in various situations. You certainly wont have the time to ponder when it happens.
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    Member Array chenemf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Turn around and shear the sheep. Let nothing movable stand in your way.
    If they are sheep they'll be leaving. Would your actions still be defensible?

    Who's a good guy? Who's a bad guy? What about innocent bystanders? Anyone grabbing for your gun would be a threat but are they the local CC hero trying to save the day because they believe you are the bad guy? Maybe it's time to cut and run if no one else is armed. How'd you get in this mess in the 1st place?
    My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent47 View Post
    ...
    You draw to deter/....
    Don't! If it justifies self-defense, or the defense of other innocence people, you draw to shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent47 View Post
    ...his/her friends or strangers attempt to grab you/assault you/take possession of your firearm. Your new assailants are all unarmed....
    Study after study shows that that doesn't happen.

    OTOH TerriLi's "Fog of War" might happen w/ armed friends of the shooter and/or another DC carrier also independently acting in SD. In either case the old "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" comes in to effect.

    BTW -- I was focused on

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent47 View Post
    ...has already commenced his/her attack....
    If just

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent47 View Post
    ...brandishing a weapon....
    And you and yours can cut and run do it, as others have said.
    Last edited by DaveH; November 16th, 2009 at 12:21 PM. Reason: Added BTW
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    Quote Originally Posted by chenemf View Post
    If they are sheep they'll be leaving. Would your actions still be defensible?

    Who's a good guy? Who's a bad guy? What about innocent bystanders? Anyone grabbing for your gun would be a threat but are they the local CC hero trying to save the day because they believe you are the bad guy? Maybe it's time to cut and run if no one else is armed. How'd you get in this mess in the 1st place?
    Good points. I think your SA will have to kick in and account for these details. I'm by no means endorsing a "kill 'em all" methodology to self defense. What's described here is a flat-out bad situation. 'Shearing sheep' can include non-lethal contact. My point is that a certain 'course of action' (not details) need to be pre-determined to some extent. For example, anybody who forcibly tries to disarm me is simply going to have a bad day. It's just cooked into my DNA that my relflex reaction is going to be extremely violent. Getting out of there should be the primary objective, supported by defensive tactics. Reflecting on how'd you get yourself in that mess while doing so would not be a good idea.

    Respectfully,

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  16. #15
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    If you have ever been without ear protection in a room when a weapon is freed you know you and every one else will be near deaf for a good while. Confusion will rule for a while, and then fear that they could be the next to be shot.

    Sheep that attack a pulled weapon bare handed within seconds of the shoots being fired are not sheep, and if no way out for you then you will have to fight your way out. No unarmed person in their right mind will charge a leveled firearm in the hands of willing and commented shooter who has just proven his ability.

    I dough the true sheep will ever attack unless you are standing in the only exit and they just want out in that case get out of the exit and let them go.

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