Throws...deadly force?

Throws...deadly force?

This is a discussion on Throws...deadly force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; When I opened my e-mail this morning I received the following video from a buddy who runs the local MMA school here in town. He ...

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Thread: Throws...deadly force?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Throws...deadly force?

    When I opened my e-mail this morning I received the following video from a buddy who runs the local MMA school here in town. He sent it to a bunch of people saying how people need to not loose control in a match or people get hurt, I agree. Start watching around the 4 minute mark. Before you do I would like to mention a few things.

    This is obviously a match situation.
    Both guys know it is a match and nobody is going to kill them.
    There is no chance of weapons being involved.
    There is no chance of multiple attackers.
    The contest takes place on a padded surface.
    There are no vertical surfaces to be slammed into.
    By nature of the contest the guy thrown was likely expecting something like it and had trained to defend/counter it.
    The "victim" had nothing on his waistband to concentrate force to increase injury.
    The "victim" was automatically protected by the referee and others.
    After the throw the fight was over, without the "victim" having to defend himself.

    OK, here is the video. YouTube - HUGE illegal KO slam!!

    When I was in HS I watched the same thing happen to a buddy while he was wrestling for the state championship. He was knocked out cold, woke up and decided to continue. He won.

    If you have never played Judo, Ju Jitsu, or any arts that contain throws you cannot fully comprehend what it means to be picked up off your feet and slammed to the mat as a matter of training. When my daughter was younger she was a two time MD State Judo Champion. She did it for about 7 yrs from 5-12. She learned it so young that it is ingrained and I have seen her throw boys much bigger than her just playing around. She also knows how to control it and pull through so they don't smash their heads.

    Be honest with your self, have you ever been thrown? Not taken down, not knocked to the ground, but picked up and slammed on the ground. Given all the things that I mentioned be for the video, look how our "victim" ended up. How do you think you respond if the same happened to you on concrete while wearing street clothes really giving the attacker something to hold on to, and stuff on your belt to "break" your fall.

    I am interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this and if they consider it deadly force.- George


  2. #2
    JD
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    ....The force in which a person uses, causing or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm.

    I've been tossed a few times, even when expecting it, if you mess up your landing it's going to jar you. The taller your opponent is, the more it's going to hurt.

    I would consider it deadly force as the following most certainly applies.
    ...create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm., if you land on your head or any other object, or just get smacked really good on the ground, that can cause serious bodily harm or death.

    Regarding carry gear, that's why I stick to trying to keep my gear at 3 and 9, if I ever end up on my back I can still reach stuff, if I ever get tossed and land on the side, it will hurt even if I can execute a proper fall (I'm way out of practice) but I think it's better than landing directly on my back with gear there.

  3. #3
    Member Array dhshark's Avatar
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    Being involved in Judo and JuJitsu and other martial arts for as long as I can remember I consider a throw a deadly force situation. You posted a while ago about landing correctly and I totally agree with you. I know how to land and if thrown while on duty (with the extra gear on) I'll be in a world of hurt...I know I could work through it but I know I will need to end the fight NOW!

    I've been thrown so many times while practicing and in tournaments and even when expecting it, it still shocks the nervous system for a good second or two. Enough that it would give the BG the edge.

    Deadly force? YES!

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    I leave the judo and such for the little girls,

    I'm more into pentjak silat. So, yeah, I've been tossed a few times.

    Its important to remember the whole "disparity of force" issue when talking about moving on to deadly force. An attacker who is bigger, stronger or just plainly more skilled can easily meet deadly force criteria. But it just depends who it is, and the situation at hand.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #5
    pax
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    YES, throws are deadly force.

    I have taken just enough jujitsu (danzan ryu) to know that the throws can be devastating and outright deadly -- and that they are deliberately designed to be so. We have never allowed our kids to take jujitsu classes until we believed they were old enough handle the awesome degree of personal responsibility that goes with having the power to kill another human being.

    And it's not just the throws. Probably half of the techniques are taught with a safety warning of some sort: "Okay, in order to keep the uke safe, we'll have him tuck his arm around right here during this throw. Don't throw him until he's got his arm where it needs to be..." and so on.

    On a related note, one of the beautiful things about jujitsu is that it does teach you how to take a fall safely. Every class starts out working on rolls and falls, and you do little else until you have mastered the art of falling without getting hurt. Our sensei encourages the students to do the majority of their falls on the mat, but also to regularly check themselves without a mat once they think they've got it. Nothing reveals poor falling habits as quickly as a hardwood floor...

    pax
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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    You are right, back to the falling again. We cover it in classes because it almost always happens, not from being thrown but people crossing their feet. Nobody looks good busting their a$$. Quite a shock for people, especially gun carriers used to a vertical world.- George

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    It is not supposed to be nice

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    You are right, back to the falling again. We cover it in classes because it almost always happens, not from being thrown but people crossing their feet. Nobody looks good busting their a$$. Quite a shock for people, especially gun carriers used to a vertical world.- George
    MA done for SD techniques (not for sport) is not supposed to be nice. It should be over in 2-3 seconds with max violence or don't bother.

    And yes, depending on the technique employed it might rise to the level of deadly force or force that should have been foreseen as deadly. In a real deal on the street fight, what choice is there? If you don't use a potentially deadly throw-with the intent of taking the fight out of the BG, you'll use a knife or be forced to use a gun.

    As for going down because we cross our feet, been there and done that in my classes. Always feel like an idiot a nonosecond after the fact.

    I once saw a fairly small guy literally throw a huge 350 pounder into the air and across a room. Amazingly the big guy was really agile, had a judo background from years earlier, and landed on his feet ---but it could have been his head/neck.

    It is potentially deadly force to shove a head into or through a window, or into a concrete column, or sidewalk. But then, what are you to do with the BG--- talk nice?

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    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    I studied combat judo. The idea was to take control and cripple the BG then finish them off.

    Semper Fi

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    Once the threat is that close, deadly force is imminent by your attacker and should be interpreted as such. The attacker clearly intends to do you harm once at the point of hand to hand. Anything goes at this point if it's perceived as life-or-death. A throw of this nature would be deemed as deadly force as the target is the head and/or top of the spine.

    Take note of the body positions possible here then factor in throw force and body weight:
    Spike directly onto the head, thus compressing the head/neck/spine could result in permanent damage or death.
    Spike to the back of the head, thus thrusting the head forward could result in a broken neck, cracked skull, brusing of the brain, paralyzation, or death.
    Spike to the base of the skull, could result in a broken neck or severe damage to the spinal cord, paralyzation, or death.
    Spike to the base of the neck at the shoulders, thus thrusting the entire neck forward and the shockwave shifting to the head in a "bobble head" motion could result in a broken neck, brain brusing, severe damage to the spinal cord, paralyzation, or death.

    Keep in mind that I say hand to hand specifically and not just proximity. The genuine perception that your life is in danger must exist and one must be capable of articulating that.

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    Member Array jarhead45's Avatar
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    20 years Aiki... not the groovy gracefull stuff , the pre war stuff.... A throw can be deadly. Check out some AikiJits stuff... can make you a believer.
    Honor, Courage, Virtue. These are what makes a man.
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    Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945

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    Throws...deadly force?
    Absolutely can be, yes.

    I am in the camp that has a bit of experience slipping on ice, in winter, and landing on the shoulders and head with my legs up over me. One of those knocked me out, though a couple others did not. In each case, I was sore and rattled for awhile.

    I've not done martial arts of the sort where devastating throws are de rigueur.

    However, as painful and debilitating in the short term that slipping on ice can be, I cannot imagine a skilled throw to the ground would be anything less than excruciating and highly dangerous. In the hands of someone well trained, I'd suspect that hard throws could easily be a deadly skill, easily executed against the uninitiated.

    Can jury members get it through their heads that it can be deadly? Dunno.
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    One of the first things you learn in the martial art I currently train in is how to fall properly, after you figure that out, you learn how to start throwing people, since it is a good way to quickly win the upped hand in a fight.

    Having been thrown a number of times, it definitely puts you at a big disadvantage, between the shock to the system, and just the bad position it puts you in. I certainly think that it could be lethal force, especially on hard surfaces where your head can suffer pretty severe damage
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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    O.K. Questions for you guys on deadly force and disparity related to what Mercop asked.

    Within that 21 foot (1 second) area-- when is "deadly" force in the form of a MA technique lawful?

    How might one assess ability, opportunity, and jeopardy for MA purposes?

    When is a somewhat trained "old geezer" like myself justified to put a teen's head into concrete? Does the age disparity alone justify use of the real deal stuff?

    I got to thinking a little about this partly because of what Mercop asked and partly because at class yesterday my instructor made a comment along the lines of, (paraphrased) --

    -"looking at you as a young person who might go after you or you and your wife, I'd never anticipate what you can do, I'd be doubly stunned first because you hit me 4 times and left me reeling and unable to see and bent off center, but also because if I were the young BG I just wouldn't have expected it from someone who looks like you, so now finish me off with a throw before I get it together and recover--- or run.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    O.K. Questions for you guys on deadly force and disparity related to what Mercop asked.

    Within that 21 foot (1 second) area-- when is "deadly" force in the form of a MA technique lawful?

    How might one assess ability, opportunity, and jeopardy for MA purposes?

    When is a somewhat trained "old geezer" like myself justified to put a teen's head into concrete? Does the age disparity alone justify use of the real deal stuff?

    I got to thinking a little about this partly because of what Mercop asked and partly because at class yesterday my instructor made a comment along the lines of, (paraphrased) --

    -"looking at you as a young person who might go after you or you and your wife, I'd never anticipate what you can do, I'd be doubly stunned first because you hit me 4 times and left me reeling and unable to see and bent off center, but also because if I were the young BG I just wouldn't have expected it from someone who looks like you, so now finish me off with a throw before I get it together and recover--- or run.
    Well, I think disparity of force would usually be going against me, as an AD Marine Corps infantryman, who is still relatively young, in pretty good shape, and not a tiny person. So, in pretty much any fisticuffs type situation, I'm going to have to prove that I thought my life was in danger, and it could be kind of difficult for me, which is why you have to be able to de-escalate the situation.

    I don't think age alone is ever enough to justify disparity of force, IMO, because it takes into account all sorts of things. Now if you have some sort of health issues or something (which hopefully you don't, but this is an example), relating to your age, it could go into the equation.

    I personally think that fist fights are one of the hardest situations to prove you used only the force needed to end the fight. Because a lot of people who have no knowledge of h2h skills don't realize how quick it can turn lethal. So they think a fistfight is just a fistfight where people get black eyes and bloody noses (which is all a lot of them turn out to be), but if one person knows what they are doing and is malicious, they can easily kill someone.

    Only when you are in a fight do you really know with what level of force you need to stop it, if that makes sense (it did to me in my days as a bouncer during college, I was never trying to really jack people up, but still needed to do my job and protect myself). And hopefully witnesses and the evidence will back you up. Of course, YMMV
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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  15. #15
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    Age has nothing to do with it when looked at alone. Age is just one of many factors to be considered.

    I know some 60 year olds I would not want to tangle with, and a whole lot of 18-20 year olds that could fight their way out of a paper bag.

    Buckeye beat me to it, and did a pretty darn good job explaining what I wanted to say.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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