This is a discussion on Deadly force within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by debrunsky New to guns, after reading these posts I am confused when it is ok to use deadly force away from home. ...
I'd like to add something to the point about Castle Doctrine: the NRA publishes an annual "Guide to the Firearm Laws of the 50 States" (I may be a bit off on the title) that will give you an idea of where your state's Castle Doctrine compares with others, both stronger and weaker. If the law is weak and does not provide a homeowner or other law-abiding citizen with adequate protection (this has to be as it is defined by you), then contact your state-level elected representatives and push for legislation to strengthen it. I'm not trying to promote the book, the NRA, or anything else, just make you aware of some sources of important info.
Two other important things to know are whether your state's law has a pre-emption clause (prevents individual cities from banning legal concealed carry practitioners within their city limits) and reciprocity with other states (most important if you travel outside the state or live near a state line like me).
Thanks for the chance to contribute to the discussion.
/ / / / pkv / / / /
"There are three kinds of people in the world: those who learn from the mistakes of others, those who learn from their own mistakes, and those who feel compelled to urinate on the electric fence." -- Unknown
Welcome to the forum and to our world. I suggest your first course of action is to find a local instructor to teach you the basics. Safety always comes first as well as the mechanics. From there, a good concealed class will teach you a lot. Florida's was one day, Colorado's was one day and New Mexico's was 2 days (yeah, it sucks to move). After that, I suspect you'll be hooked on shooting sports and want more. Others have suggested several good schools (Front Sight is in the mix). Good luck, stay safe & welcome!
BE PREPARED - Noah didn't build the Ark when it was raining!
Si vis pacem, para bellum
NRA Life Member
“Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
~ Stephen King
CCW permit holder for Idaho, Utah, Pennsylvania, Maine and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country but not my own.
My Colorado class was two days with the second day being live shoot. This was not required by law in Colorado but instructors are allowed to increase the requirement if they wish.
The biggest confusion between states is the requirement to retreat or not. Some state will say because you didn't try to run/leave the threat you killed them when another option was available. Now the "reasonable man" standard come in to play when circumstances vary. Suppose you are disabled, out of shape, with your child, etc the requirement to retreat may not apply. If you were merely out of shape you may have the requirement to try and escape before deploying deadly force.
Another confusion is protecting private property with deadly force.Is that justified? It depends on the state and circumstances. In Texas it is different than say Maryland. Even the circumstances can cause problems. Lets say you hear a rumbling in your shed out back so you head out with your shotgun to find a person stealing your tools, you yell drop it and they attack you with your own machete, are you justified to shoot? These are not so cut and dry. In some states the law says you went out with intent to kill, others say that when he turned and attacked the situation changed and lethal force is justified. The perps rap sheet is even a factor. Let's say the guy was an escaped felon and looking for somewhere to hide and you came across him in your shed, he has already killed the last two ppl he came across, your shoot would look good at that point. The question is how would you have known?l
The three levels of law (federal, state and local) we're subject to at all times are constantly changing depending on our location. The almost infinite combination of the three make it really difficult to effectively answer this question.
Even if the use of force was righteous and justified, any court in the land COULD potentially convict you of murder. It completely depends on the jury and your lawyer.
One thing is for sure.....NEVER TALK TO LEO's WITHOUT A LAWYER PRESENT. The most insignificant information you give them CAN AND WILL be used and against you a court of law. Your miranda rights dont say that any information you give can be used to help you.
"Act like a man of thought - Think like a man of action"
+1 on Shoot to Live, in no other circumstance would I want to pull that trigger. For example, let's say I am legally justified and it goes to court anyway and I am acquitted, but I know in my head that I could have gotten away without taking the shot. Could I live with that? Would it eat my up inside? For me, it would as I am not a killer (I just want to protect myself and my family from those that are).
Another great site is Handgunlaw.us, here you will find good information about your state's laws and even links to the official pages. It is well maintained and kept up to date.
I am the Walrus...Goo Goo Goo Joob
“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” –Benjamin Franklin
In FL I can use deadly force to protect myself or another from the use or threatened use of deadly force. In the latter case, the use of deadly force must be imminent (must be able to articulate how the perp had ability and opportunity and how you were in jeopardy).
Finally, I have no obligation to retreat in FL even when I am outside the home. This is commonly called the modified Castle Doctrine.
Personal Defense's Massad Ayoob - what to do after a self defense shooting:
Hoping and Assuming you survived...
1. Call 911
2. "Officer this person attacked me, I will sign the complaint."
3. "Officer here is the evidence (knife, gun, ball bat, whatever)."
4. "Officer these are the witnesses."
5. "Officer you will have my full cooperation in 24 hrs after I see my attorney."
And another Mas Ayoob article.
Tactical-Life.com After A Shooting, What To Reveal
Here's the "5 things to say to the police" part excerpted from the previous link:
This is why I’ve come to advise Lethal Force Institute students to stick to five bare-bones statements when questioned. First, “This man attacked me.” It makes clear from the beginning that you’re the Victim and the guy you were forced to shoot was the Perpetrator.
Second, “I will sign the complaint.” You’re speaking the cop’s language, and further locking in the facts of who’s who and what’s what: you are the Good Guy or Gal, and the guy on the ground is the Bad Guy.
Third, point out the evidence. If you don’t, it can disappear or get moved. In Case Eight in Illinois, a gangbanger attacked a cop and tried to rip his Smith & Wesson 9mm out of his holster and murder him with it. The cop wound up having to shoot and kill him in self-defense. Not until I got there to examine the evidence for trial did anyone bother to examine the uniform pants the officer was wearing; they were torn in the holster area, confirming the officer’s version of events. By then he had been charged with an illegal homicide, and had to go all the way through trial to win acquittal.
Fourth, point out the witnesses. Their words may well exonerate you, but the general public fears reprisal by the genuine criminals who attacked you, or their accomplices, and may be reluctant to come forward on their own. The only way to be sure that testimony that may exonerate you will be taken, is for you to point out to police the witnesses who saw you shoot your attacker in self-defense.
Fifth, and critically important, “Officer, you’ll have my full cooperation after I’ve spoken with counsel.” Stick to that like name, rank, and serial number. Experts tell us that it will be a minimum of 24 to perhaps 72 hours before you’ll be in any condition to deal with a full interrogation. And that interrogation (the more politically correct term “interview” is used now) should not take place until you’ve discussed it with your attorney in depth. Nor should it take place, in my opinion, without the attorney right there with you, and a legal stenographic service’s camcorder rolling to record it for your side, just in case.
I'm looking for the video interview Mas did on this subject - I just watched it two days ago...
Edit: Here it is! http://link.brightcove.com/services/...id=16359316001
I love it when I lose a link, then find tons of good, new info while trying to relocate the link I'm looking for.
Last edited by FreeDelivery; January 5th, 2010 at 03:39 AM. Reason: Video