Deadly force - Page 2

Deadly force

This is a discussion on Deadly force within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by debrunsky New to guns, after reading these posts I am confused when it is ok to use deadly force away from home. ...

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Thread: Deadly force

  1. #16
    Member Array Bart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by debrunsky View Post
    New to guns, after reading these posts I am confused when it is ok to use deadly force away from home.
    Please set me straight.

    Thanks
    In Arizona we have the Castle Doctrine that gives a person the right to use force in home or vehicle against an intruder without having to retreat. Also, bill (SB1145) passed in 2006 imposes the burden of proof on prosecutors to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that a defendant's self-defense claim was unfounded. Prosecutors were really upset saying the bill opens the door for abuses in which one of the only two people involved in a violent incident is dead and can't appear in court to refute a self-defense claim. Be it at home, in the car, or away from home, we no longer have to go broke proving our innocence.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Keep in mind the "Reasonable Man Standard," in which you are given legal authority to decide what's reasonable right then and there, but ultimately your peers (in a jury) get the authority to determine what was reasonable, in hindsight.
    In this scenario, your fate rests with 12 people who were not smart enough to get out of jury duty. Scary reality.
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  3. #18
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  4. #19
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    I'd like to add something to the point about Castle Doctrine: the NRA publishes an annual "Guide to the Firearm Laws of the 50 States" (I may be a bit off on the title) that will give you an idea of where your state's Castle Doctrine compares with others, both stronger and weaker. If the law is weak and does not provide a homeowner or other law-abiding citizen with adequate protection (this has to be as it is defined by you), then contact your state-level elected representatives and push for legislation to strengthen it. I'm not trying to promote the book, the NRA, or anything else, just make you aware of some sources of important info.

    Two other important things to know are whether your state's law has a pre-emption clause (prevents individual cities from banning legal concealed carry practitioners within their city limits) and reciprocity with other states (most important if you travel outside the state or live near a state line like me).

    Thanks for the chance to contribute to the discussion.
    / / / / pkv / / / /
    "There are three kinds of people in the world: those who learn from the mistakes of others, those who learn from their own mistakes, and those who feel compelled to urinate on the electric fence." -- Unknown

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array sniper58's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum and to our world. I suggest your first course of action is to find a local instructor to teach you the basics. Safety always comes first as well as the mechanics. From there, a good concealed class will teach you a lot. Florida's was one day, Colorado's was one day and New Mexico's was 2 days (yeah, it sucks to move). After that, I suspect you'll be hooked on shooting sports and want more. Others have suggested several good schools (Front Sight is in the mix). Good luck, stay safe & welcome!
    Tim
    BE PREPARED - Noah didn't build the Ark when it was raining!
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyBunny View Post
    Great recommendation since nearly everyone who has it, loves it! Still, I haven't got around to this particular book. Do you or anyone know if there is an audio version or podcast available?
    Dan
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saber View Post
    Great recommendation since nearly everyone who has it, loves it! Still, I haven't got around to this particular book. Do you or anyone know if there is an audio version or podcast available?
    Dan
    This is all I could find Saber................

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    CCW permit holder for Idaho, Utah, Pennsylvania, Maine and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country but not my own.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array rljohns's Avatar
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    My Colorado class was two days with the second day being live shoot. This was not required by law in Colorado but instructors are allowed to increase the requirement if they wish.

    The biggest confusion between states is the requirement to retreat or not. Some state will say because you didn't try to run/leave the threat you killed them when another option was available. Now the "reasonable man" standard come in to play when circumstances vary. Suppose you are disabled, out of shape, with your child, etc the requirement to retreat may not apply. If you were merely out of shape you may have the requirement to try and escape before deploying deadly force.

    Another confusion is protecting private property with deadly force.Is that justified? It depends on the state and circumstances. In Texas it is different than say Maryland. Even the circumstances can cause problems. Lets say you hear a rumbling in your shed out back so you head out with your shotgun to find a person stealing your tools, you yell drop it and they attack you with your own machete, are you justified to shoot? These are not so cut and dry. In some states the law says you went out with intent to kill, others say that when he turned and attacked the situation changed and lethal force is justified. The perps rap sheet is even a factor. Let's say the guy was an escaped felon and looking for somewhere to hide and you came across him in your shed, he has already killed the last two ppl he came across, your shoot would look good at that point. The question is how would you have known?l

  9. #24
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    federal, state, local laws

    The three levels of law (federal, state and local) we're subject to at all times are constantly changing depending on our location. The almost infinite combination of the three make it really difficult to effectively answer this question.

    Even if the use of force was righteous and justified, any court in the land COULD potentially convict you of murder. It completely depends on the jury and your lawyer.

    One thing is for sure.....NEVER TALK TO LEO's WITHOUT A LAWYER PRESENT. The most insignificant information you give them CAN AND WILL be used and against you a court of law. Your miranda rights dont say that any information you give can be used to help you.
    "Act like a man of thought - Think like a man of action"

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Three words. Shoot to live no matter where you are. If you don't live, all of this will mean nothing to you
    When in doubt, this sounds like the route to take.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

  11. #26
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    +1 on Shoot to Live, in no other circumstance would I want to pull that trigger. For example, let's say I am legally justified and it goes to court anyway and I am acquitted, but I know in my head that I could have gotten away without taking the shot. Could I live with that? Would it eat my up inside? For me, it would as I am not a killer (I just want to protect myself and my family from those that are).

    Another great site is Handgunlaw.us, here you will find good information about your state's laws and even links to the official pages. It is well maintained and kept up to date.
    I am the Walrus...Goo Goo Goo Joob

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by debrunsky View Post
    New to guns, after reading these posts I am confused when it is ok to use deadly force away from home.
    Please set me straight.

    Thanks
    ... varies from State to State ... take a good CCW class and this is usually one of the questions addressed ... ask/research (through) your State CCW issuing authority. State website may contain FAQs leading you to the correct sections of your State's Statutes and/or Administrative codes.

    In FL I can use deadly force to protect myself or another from the use or threatened use of deadly force. In the latter case, the use of deadly force must be imminent (must be able to articulate how the perp had ability and opportunity and how you were in jeopardy).

    Finally, I have no obligation to retreat in FL even when I am outside the home. This is commonly called the modified Castle Doctrine.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyBunny View Post


    One copy's always on my bookshelf, and one's usually circulating to friends who I loan it out to.

  14. #29
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    Personal Defense's Massad Ayoob - what to do after a self defense shooting:
    Hoping and Assuming you survived...

    1. Call 911
    2. "Officer this person attacked me, I will sign the complaint."
    3. "Officer here is the evidence (knife, gun, ball bat, whatever)."
    4. "Officer these are the witnesses."
    5. "Officer you will have my full cooperation in 24 hrs after I see my attorney."

  15. #30
    Member Array FreeDelivery's Avatar
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    And another Mas Ayoob article.

    Tactical-Life.com After A Shooting, What To Reveal
    Here's the "5 things to say to the police" part excerpted from the previous link:

    This is why I’ve come to advise Lethal Force Institute students to stick to five bare-bones statements when questioned. First, “This man attacked me.” It makes clear from the beginning that you’re the Victim and the guy you were forced to shoot was the Perpetrator.

    Second, “I will sign the complaint.” You’re speaking the cop’s language, and further locking in the facts of who’s who and what’s what: you are the Good Guy or Gal, and the guy on the ground is the Bad Guy.

    Third, point out the evidence. If you don’t, it can disappear or get moved. In Case Eight in Illinois, a gangbanger attacked a cop and tried to rip his Smith & Wesson 9mm out of his holster and murder him with it. The cop wound up having to shoot and kill him in self-defense. Not until I got there to examine the evidence for trial did anyone bother to examine the uniform pants the officer was wearing; they were torn in the holster area, confirming the officer’s version of events. By then he had been charged with an illegal homicide, and had to go all the way through trial to win acquittal.

    Fourth, point out the witnesses. Their words may well exonerate you, but the general public fears reprisal by the genuine criminals who attacked you, or their accomplices, and may be reluctant to come forward on their own. The only way to be sure that testimony that may exonerate you will be taken, is for you to point out to police the witnesses who saw you shoot your attacker in self-defense.

    Fifth, and critically important, “Officer, you’ll have my full cooperation after I’ve spoken with counsel.” Stick to that like name, rank, and serial number. Experts tell us that it will be a minimum of 24 to perhaps 72 hours before you’ll be in any condition to deal with a full interrogation. And that interrogation (the more politically correct term “interview” is used now) should not take place until you’ve discussed it with your attorney in depth. Nor should it take place, in my opinion, without the attorney right there with you, and a legal stenographic service’s camcorder rolling to record it for your side, just in case.

    I'm looking for the video interview Mas did on this subject - I just watched it two days ago...
    Edit: Here it is! http://link.brightcove.com/services/...id=16359316001

    I love it when I lose a link, then find tons of good, new info while trying to relocate the link I'm looking for.
    Last edited by FreeDelivery; January 5th, 2010 at 03:39 AM. Reason: Video

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