What Do You Do?

What Do You Do?

This is a discussion on What Do You Do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; You're walking through a parking lot and come upon a man beating a frail, elderly woman. He has no obvious weapon, but is clearly capable ...

Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 81

Thread: What Do You Do?

  1. #1
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Hiding inside a bottle of Jim Beam Black.
    Posts
    17,659

    What Do You Do?

    You're walking through a parking lot and come upon a man beating a frail, elderly woman. He has no obvious weapon, but is clearly capable of inflicting serious injury or death upon the woman. No one else is around.

    You have a CWP, a pistol on your hip, and a cellphone in your pocket.

    What do you do?


  2. #2
    Member Array Bfunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    368
    I'd draw, clearly and assertively yell "Stop or I'll shoot" and see where it goes from there. I would not give him much time to comply. In other situations you may have to wonder if the now victim actually started it, or weither the aggressor is an UC cop, but being an elderly woman i think it's pretty clear what is going on.

    "Stop or I'll shoot", then he has about 1 second to get off of her and to the ground. 1 more punch and i fire.

    edit: of course after stopping the threat i would be on the phone w/ 911
    Springfield Armory XD 9mm service
    Sig Sauer P250c 9mm

    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

  3. #3
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Hiding inside a bottle of Jim Beam Black.
    Posts
    17,659
    "In other situations you may have to wonder if the now victim actually started it, "

    Whether she started it or not is irrelevent. She is in danger now and you can stop it. I agree with your answer about 95%.

    With no weapon visible, I'd warn him first (with weapon in hand) but unload if he reached inside a jacket or charged me. Yeah, some might say he's off-duty cop reaching for a badge, but unlikely. I don't think he'd be beating up a woman to start with, and if he was, he's just another bad apple.

    And, of course, I'd be calling 911 as soon as possible.

  4. #4
    VIP Member
    Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NOVA...200 square miles surrounded by reality
    Posts
    3,569
    Call 911 Be a good witness.

    I try to stay out of other peoples business. Unfortunatly, personal protection is a responsibility of each individiual citizen. I have no responsibility to a third party stranger.

    If I choose to make it my business there are many other factors that I need to consider and unfortunatly many people don't.

    For Example do you actually know whats going on. While the typical perception is, that the women is a victim, do you know that with 1000% certainty. The answer is NO in the case you provided.

    Use of lethal force:
    Ability, Oppurtunity, Jeopardy and Preclusion.

    Ability does this man have the ability to hurt me
    Oppurtunit does this man have the oppurtunity to hurt me
    Jeopardy am I in jeopardy
    Preclusion-if I use deadly force to protect a third party what happens to me.

    After a gentleman saved a cop from getting beaten to death he is now being sued by the family.

    http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/o...-perry_12.html
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  5. #5
    Member Array Bfunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    368
    I agree that even if the victim is now the aggressor you can still stop the threat. What I meant was that maybe the CWP holder only sees 1 or two hits from the "agressor" this could very easily be the original victim that has managed to gain the upper hand in the situation. In the case of it being an old lady being beaten, I am going to be much less likely to give this guy a chance to say he was "stopping a threat" himself.

    does that make any sense?
    Springfield Armory XD 9mm service
    Sig Sauer P250c 9mm

    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

  6. #6
    Member Array Bfunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    368
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Call 911 Be a good witness.

    I try to stay out of other peoples business. Unfortunatly, personal protection is a responsibility of each individiual citizen. I have no responsibility to a third party stranger.
    I have no responsibility to a third party stranger, but as my instructor put it "its up to every sheepdog to choose who is in his flock". Atleast in Ohio deadly force is a legal way to protect a strange who's life is in danger.

    I would choose the size of my flock based off every individual situation, but seeing an elderly woman being clearly beaten... I'm including her in my flock.
    Springfield Armory XD 9mm service
    Sig Sauer P250c 9mm

    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

  7. #7
    VIP Member
    Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NOVA...200 square miles surrounded by reality
    Posts
    3,569
    Quote Originally Posted by Bfunk View Post
    I agree that even if the victim is now the aggressor you can still stop the threat. What I meant was that maybe the CWP holder only sees 1 or two hits from the "agressor" this could very easily be the original victim that has managed to gain the upper hand in the situation. In the case of it being an old lady being beaten, I am going to be much less likely to give this guy a chance to say he was "stopping a threat" himself.

    does that make any sense?

    You do realize that pulling a gun on somebody, generally by act alone constitutes deadly force?
    Do you know your states force continum laws?
    Are you a police officer?
    Do you hold arresting authority in your state?
    Unfortunatly using the Phrase "I was trying to do the right thing!" gernally doesn't hold up in court. Expecially if you pull a gun and violate anothers rights.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  8. #8
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Hiding inside a bottle of Jim Beam Black.
    Posts
    17,659
    The woman is in danger (whether it's her fault or not) and you're going to stand by? Sounds like a New Yorker's excuse when seeing a pimp kill his hooker.
    In Florida you canuse you concealed weapon to intervene in third party threats. That prevents the "glad-it's-not-me" syndrome.

  9. #9
    Member Array Bfunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    368
    I am not a LEO, I do not have arrest powers. The aggressor is beating an elderly woman, this is deadly force. I will recipricate with deadly force.
    Springfield Armory XD 9mm service
    Sig Sauer P250c 9mm

    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array Arko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere near Nashville
    Posts
    1,271
    I generally agree with bfunk.
    I usually operate under the "drop back, call and be a good witness" mindset, but at face value, the elderly woman in my mind likely did nothing to precipitate a brutal attack, and given the disparity of force I would likely intervene directly.
    That's just me though.
    "Don't Tread on Me"

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Under this specific scenario I would come to assist as to separate the two.

    Why?

    Only (!) because of the disparity in force issue as related to age, stature, and strength as well as ability for either combatant to defend them self.

    If I saw two persons of seemingly equal stature going at it though I would not do anything but maybe dial 911 and be a good witness, maybe.

    I would not draw on either person at first.
    If the primary combatant though did refuse to yield or turned his attack toward me then he would get a face full of OC/CS which I normally carry.

    My side arm is for dire emergency use only.
    A fight in the street is not a dire emergency, in my book.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #12
    VIP Member
    Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NOVA...200 square miles surrounded by reality
    Posts
    3,569
    Quote Originally Posted by Bfunk View Post
    I have no responsibility to a third party stranger, but as my instructor put it "its up to every sheepdog to choose who is in his flock". Atleast in Ohio deadly force is a legal way to protect a strange who's life is in danger.

    I would choose the size of my flock based off every individual situation, but seeing an elderly woman being clearly beaten... I'm including her in my flock.
    I've read all of Col Grossman stuff as well. However, we live in the real world of Liability of our own actions.

    What you have to realize is that just because something is legal doesn't mean there are not consequences. You may feel that you have a higher obligation to protect your fellow man; however, in reality you have ZERO obligation to protect a third pary. Yes it maybe legal, however, there may also be HUGE consequence even if you are slightly wrong.

    Carrying a gun doesn't grant you special powers. Instead of getting involvded in problems, it should actually make you avoid problems.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array Arko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere near Nashville
    Posts
    1,271
    I knew I should have waited to post. Janq summed up my response better than I did!
    "Don't Tread on Me"

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array Arko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere near Nashville
    Posts
    1,271
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    I've read all of Col Grossman stuff as well. However, we live in the real world of Liability of our own actions.

    What you have to realize is that just because something is legal doesn't mean there are not consequences. You may feel that you have a higher obligation to protect your fellow man; however, in reality you have ZERO obligation to protect a third pary. Yes it maybe legal, however, there may also be HUGE consequence even if you are slightly wrong.

    Carrying a gun doesn't grant you special powers. Instead of getting involvded in problems, it should actually make you avoid problems.
    My gun is of secondary consideration in this instance. I would intervene in this case even if un-armed.
    I would present my weapon only if/when I need to escalate. But then again, I'm a trained combatant of considerable phtsical stature.
    "Don't Tread on Me"

  15. #15
    Member Array Bfunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    368
    I realize there could and probably would be consequences, and like Janq said, if it were two men of seemingly equal ability i'd be less likely to intervene. But i would sleep better in jail or having been sued knowing that i saved an elderly womans life than I would at home in my own bed thinking of how I watched her be beaten to death.
    Springfield Armory XD 9mm service
    Sig Sauer P250c 9mm

    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •