A sheepdog in action

This is a discussion on A sheepdog in action within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by dakeypoo Divebum, You say you're responsible for your family. Are you always with your family? I don't think so. He did the ...

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Thread: A sheepdog in action

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dakeypoo View Post
    Divebum,

    You say you're responsible for your family. Are you always with your family? I don't think so. He did the right thing, and you would have done the same thing. Admit it.
    I very well may have. However, I was not there, don't know all of the circumstances and don't like to speculate or assume. My point is that I don't carry a weapon with any expectations of protecting anyone other than my family or myself. I am a little apprehensive of those who carry a weapon in hopes that they'll have the opportunity to be a hero, or who say that they would get involved.

    I have been in situations where I've been shot at and shot back. Funny thing is, each time it went a little or a lot different than what I expected. Military combat is a whole different group of circumstances, but it does boil down to action and reaction.

    Kudos to the teacher who got involved. If the circumstances are exactly as reported, I would like to think I would have gotten involved, and am pretty confident that I would have. However, I don't know all the facts, all the circumstances other that what is reported here. That's not enough for me to say that I would take potentially a lethal part in the proceedings.

    As for my family, you are correct. I am not always with them. But my wife and my daughter are alwaysself-aware, situationally aware and prepared as much as is possible. It is something we discuss on a regular basis.

    Again, my point is that I, personally, don't feel qualified or particularly compelled to get involved to the extent that I would use my weapon in the vast majority of scenarios. I would, however, let the circumstances dictate the extent of my involvement. I just don't like to speculate or run off at the mouth as to what I would do. I'm not a tough guy, don't pretend to be. I'm past the age where vanity or machismo is an important issue in my life.

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  3. #17
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum47 View Post
    Ain't a cop, don't wanna be a cop, don't pretend to be a cop. Sheepdog? Hmmm. I consider myself a protector of my family, loved ones and self. Other than that, a good witness. If you carry a gun to protect others (except for your family and self) you ought to consider being a LEO.

    YMMV
    You ought to consider researching the US Supreme Courts' position on what you just said, because you're dead wrong. Police have ZERO obligation to use their firearm in the defense of a citizen, let alone even attempt to stop someone from killing you.

    The USSC believes it is up to the citizenry to defend themselves and their neighbors. Not the police.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    good for the sheepdog did good
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    Glad Minto came along.

    Mitchell needs to learn the rule of Stupids...and dating another man's wife seems like it would be included in there.
    If you're going to be having sex with a violent man's wife, you better be prepared for the attack.
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  6. #20
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    I didnt read anywhere that there was sex envolved, however if you are hanging out with a violent mans wife (or girlfriend), regarless of your relationship status, you should be prepared for a attack.
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  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    You ought to consider researching the US Supreme Courts' position on what you just said, because you're dead wrong. Police have ZERO obligation to use their firearm in the defense of a citizen, let alone even attempt to stop someone from killing you.
    I have and I'm quite aware of the obligation/s of the LEO's. The point is that if you are a sworn LEO and use your gun to defend someone other than family or self, the chances of not spending a good portion of the next few months in court and losing your childrens' inheritance at best is far greater than if you are the average citizen, irrespective of existence or lack of SCOTUS supported doctrine.

    We hear that the teacher potentially saved a life. We read in NRA National Rifleman how often someone uses a gun to protect self, family, bystanders and property. We read instances of the same on this forum several times a week. What we don't read is, as Paul Harvey would have said, is "the rest of the story." We very seldom know what emotional, financial and legal battles these people go through.

    Again, many Kudos to the teacher. That said, I sure would not want to be in his moccasins. And I'd like to find out in a year or so if he feels his actions were worth the pain and agony.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum47 View Post
    Ain't a cop, don't wanna be a cop, don't pretend to be a cop. Sheepdog? Hmmm. I consider myself a protector of my family, loved ones and self. Other than that, a good witness. If you carry a gun to protect others (except for your family and self) you ought to consider being a LEO. YMMV
    Honestly, I feel the exact same way, up until the instant that something goes down right in front of me. I have no idea what my instincts would force me to do. I believe my brain and years of training would perceive a threat as a threat, and I may not be able to discern between the value of my life vs. someone nearby.
    Regards,
    Last edited by Saber; December 10th, 2009 at 05:49 PM.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array bsnow's Avatar
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    I wish there was more responsible reporting like this everywhere in the media.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum47 View Post
    I have and I'm quite aware of the obligation/s of the LEO's. The point is that if you are a sworn LEO and use your gun to defend someone other than family or self, the chances of not spending a good portion of the next few months in court and losing your childrens' inheritance at best is far greater than if you are the average citizen, irrespective of existence or lack of SCOTUS supported doctrine.

    We hear that the teacher potentially saved a life. We read in NRA National Rifleman how often someone uses a gun to protect self, family, bystanders and property. We read instances of the same on this forum several times a week. What we don't read is, as Paul Harvey would have said, is "the rest of the story." We very seldom know what emotional, financial and legal battles these people go through.

    Again, many Kudos to the teacher. That said, I sure would not want to be in his moccasins. And I'd like to find out in a year or so if he feels his actions were worth the pain and agony.
    I suppose that is why I am glad to live in a state with a Good Samaritan law on the books that prevents that sort of problem. If it was a justified action, there are no legal consequences. And if the person you shot was committing a crime worthy of you shooting him, then neither them nor their heirs or estate can sue you over it. No person can profit while in the commission of a crime in any way.

    Saving a life is worth it, IMO.

    And seriously, for all the rhetoric about sheepdogs...sheesh, lighten up a little. The metaphor breaks down at some point of course, but it is slang/shorthand on this forum for someone who is a protector of themselves and others. It's a known nickname.



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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Bingo sheepdogs help the rancher enslave the sheep. They aren't the guardians of the flock they're the jailers. You want to be a sheepdog knock yourself out
    I disagree, the sheepdogs do not harm the sheep, they keep them from harm, but they will attack the wolf. Just because you gather up your family and enslave them (put them back in the house during danger) does not mean that you are doing a bad thing.

    It's just a matter of nomenclature anyway...a rose is still a rose...
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  12. #26
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    I disagree, the sheepdogs do not harm the sheep, they keep them from harm
    Clearly you've never been on a sheep ranch. Sheep dogs force the flock to comply to the rancher's wishes by intimidating and brutalizing them. It's the sheep dog that herds the flock into the sheering or slaughter pens and forcibly seperates the flock from its youn so the young can be sold or slaughtered.

    If you want to aggrandize yourself by pretending you're some "noble defender of the flock" I can't stop you but I'll be damned if I'll play into your delusions of granduer

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Clearly you've never been on a sheep ranch. Sheep dogs force the flock to comply to the rancher's wishes by intimidating and brutalizing them. It's the sheep dog that herds the flock into the sheering or slaughter pens and forcibly seperates the flock from its youn so the young can be sold or slaughtered.

    If you want to aggrandize yourself by pretending you're some "noble defender of the flock" I can't stop you but I'll be damned if I'll play into your delusions of granduer
    Traits

    LGDs are generally large and protective, which can make them less than ideal for urban or even suburban living. Nonetheless, despite their size, they can be gentle, make good companion dogs, and are often protective towards children. If introduced to a family as a pup, most LGDs are as protective of their family as a working guard dog is of its flock. In fact, in some communities where LGDs are a tradition, the runt of a litter would often be kept or given as a household pet or simply kept as a village dog without a single owner.
    Anywhere from one to five dogs may be placed with a flock or herd depending on its size, the type of predators, their number, and the intensity of predation. If predators are scarce, one dog may be adequate though range operations usually require two dogs. Both male and female LGDs have proved to be equally effective in protecting of livestock. However, in regions where dogs were used in annual transhumance migrations, males were often used exclusively as LGDs since pregnant bitches and newborn pups would likely perish on the long journeys.
    The three qualities most sought after in LGDs are trustworthiness, attentiveness and protectiveness—trustworthy in that they do not roam off and are not aggressive with the livestock, attentive in that they are situationally aware of threats by predators, and protective in that they will attempt to drive off predators. Dogs, being social creatures with differing personalities, will take on different roles with the herd and among themselves: most sticking close to the livestock, others tending to follow the shepherd or rancher when one is present, and some drifting farther from the livestock. These differing roles are often complementary in terms of protecting livestock, and experienced ranchers and shepherds sometimes encourage these differences by adjustments in socialization technique so as to increase the effectiveness of their group of dogs in meeting specific predator threats. LGDs that follow the livestock closest assure that a guard dog is on hand if a predator attacks, while LGDs that patrol at the edges of a flock or herd are in a position to keep would-be attackers at a safe distance from livestock. Those dogs that are more attentive tend to alert those that are more passive but perhaps also more trustworthy or less aggressive with the livestock.
    While LGDs have been known to fight to the death with predators, in most cases predator attacks are prevented by a display of aggressiveness. LGDs are known to drive off predators that physically they would be no match for, such as bears and even lions. With the reintroduction of predators into natural habitats in Europe and North America, environmentalists have come to appreciate LGDs because they allow sheep and cattle farming to coexist with predators in the same or nearby habitats. Unlike trapping and poisoning, LGDs seldom kill predators; instead, their aggressive behaviors tend to condition predators to seek unguarded (thus, non-farm animal) prey. For instance, in Italy's Gran Sasso National Park, where LGDs and wolves have coexisted for centuries, older, more experienced wolves seem to "know" the LGDs and leave their flocks alone.

    Treo,

    First of all, take a couple of 'chill pills' and a short nap. Next, don't assume what I have done or not done...I've probably lived in more places than you have years under your belt, at least I assume that by your immature tone...I could be mistaken.
    As far as Sheepdogs, they also are protective of children, but I better warn the rancher that I lived next to...to be careful of "Runner", he'll probable be attacking the children soon...after he finishes off victimizing the sheep.
    As far as FORCING sheep (or other animals) into the pens for slaughter, that's life, think about it next time you make a sandwich...

    The reply is respectfully submitted, of course...
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Yeah! Where was someone like this when the kid in Chicago was getting beat to death in the street? Everyone had a cell phone, but no one called 911. They only took pictures! AN how about the gang rape in CA? Same thing. Lots of cells but no one stepped up and protected the victim.

    No one respects the sheepdog until they need one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiller2 View Post
    Well maybe one day when one of your family members is getting stabbed shot or raped someone can return the favor and be a good witness instead of doing something productive like ...I don't know saving their life maybe.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    If you're going to be having sex with a violent man's wife, you better be prepared for the attack.
    Where in the article did it state that the guy was having sex with the perps wife?
    I read he was walking with her.

    She should also rethink her marriage arraingment, but she obviously still wants him,
    She should be brought up on charges of aiding and abetting though,
    JMHO


    P.S.
    What ret has said is accurate, as I have studied the history of "Sheepdogs",
    more accurately reffered to as Livestock guardian dogs; LGD's

    They guard their respective charges with their LIVES if need be; shepard dogs,
    ie; border collies, rotweillers GSD s schnauzer s and the like are typically the round -up type dog, as they do not usually protect, but I digress,,,,,,,,,


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    Last edited by oneshot; December 12th, 2009 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Add P.S
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  15. #29
    Member Array rstrainii's Avatar
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    +1 for the Teacher. No one knows what they would do until the situation arises but I feel that if you carry a firearm that you should be responsiable for protecting life. I carry for my protection and my family's protection and hope that I NEVER have to use it, but if I saw a person being stabbed I feel that calling 911 and stepping in is the right thing to do. Preservation of life. Just make sure that when LEO show up you re holster your weapon.

    On the dog thing I have two border collies and they are great protectors by alerting us to danger and if need be putting themselves between family members and the danger, usally stray dogs. To be honest they both suck at hearding animals but are great at keeping the kids in the yard.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    Glad Minto came along.

    Mitchell needs to learn the rule of Stupids...and dating another man's wife seems like it would be included in there.
    I don't know if Mitchell needs to be charged with being Stupid but the wife sure does. She sees her husband (with a different name for some reason) stab a guy, gets in a car with him in this angered obviously dangereous state, then she then drives him away, (isn't that Aiding and Abetting?) then returns to get the cell phone he dropped, and tells police where to look for him. Whose side is she on anyway?

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