What would you do? - Page 3

What would you do?

This is a discussion on What would you do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by chenemf If you are justified to draw, it's too late to give warning. Just because you draw doesn't mean you have to ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by chenemf View Post
    If you are justified to draw, it's too late to give warning.
    Just because you draw doesn't mean you have to shoot. If the presentation of your firearm is enough to defuse the situation, that is all that's called for. To shoot merely because you drew is not better than them, and in some courts, may be construed as excessive force. Use as much force as needed and no more. We, as the GGs, are supposed to be better than the BGs.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth


  2. #32
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    Original post had this hypothesis: "If you, your wife, and toddler daughter were out and a group of guys surrounded you in a not so public area."

    Uh, if you, your wife and toddler daughter are out together, you should make darn sure you don't walk them into this kind of situation. If you do your job as head of the household right, the rest of the hypothesized scenario will never come about.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTCameraman View Post
    I wouldn't give any warning. They already clearly stated their intentions.
    Agreed; about the time Mr. Mouth grew a third eye the others would start remembering that they had better places to be.
    The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved

  4. #34
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    Its usually just me and my 2 kids out...I don't like people behind me and never have. I wont even turn my back to a person in line at the grocery store check out, much less let a group surround me and my kids.
    If a group came near me from any direction I'm usually looking for a solid wall to be next to with my kids behind me as much as possible.

    As for their threat and conditions for walking away alive...over my dead body.
    No one touches me or my kids. In the given situation I wouldn't care what the law said. I doubt you could find a jury who would agree that I should have let them rape me and my kids for the promise of being able to walk away alive.

    "There's right and there's wrong. You gotta do one or the other. You do the one, and you're living. You do the other, and you may be walking around, but you're as dead as a beaver hat." John Wayne
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws... serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Cesare Beccaria

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Original post had this hypothesis: "If you, your wife, and toddler daughter were out and a group of guys surrounded you in a not so public area."

    Uh, if you, your wife and toddler daughter are out together, you should make darn sure you don't walk them into this kind of situation. If you do your job as head of the household right, the rest of the hypothesized scenario will never come about.
    I knew that was coming. I do stay out of those situations but sometimes they may be unavoidable or I can make a mistake.

  6. #36
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    re:joepa Life is like a Mario Brother's game

    Quote Originally Posted by joepa150 View Post
    I knew that was coming. I do stay out of those situations but sometimes they may be unavoidable or I can make a mistake.
    Remember the old early computer game, Mario Brother's. One mistake and you lose.

    Life is like a Mario Brother's game. There's no room for, "sometimes they may be unavoidable or I can make a mistake."

    I know that sounds harsh, but it is the unvarnished sad truth. You get one chance on this planet and there is precious little room for mistakes.

    Just to soften the message a tad, I recently walked into what I thought was going to be an "unavoidable situation." In reality, had either I or my wife used the 3 neurons still functioning between our skulls, we wouldn't have been where we were at the particular time of day. In other words, the situation was avoidable.

    We get one chance. Stay away from situations.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911V10 View Post
    In MN rape itself is not legal grounds for deadly force, I clearly remember that from my class, however you say a toddler is involved which makes this cut and dry as far as I'm concerned, rape on a toddler could very well be fatal from hemorrhaging not to mention the life long mental damage.

    This is my take on the legal aspect of it here.
    MN law:
    609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.

    The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.

    ---

    I assume the threat to rape is backed up by something more than words. The display of weapons, and the disparity of force (multiple on you, wife and toddler won't be expected by a jury to fight), combined with the threat to stay out and you walk away (so if you don't you won't) meets the above criteria for me. Draw, shoot the leader, change aim, repeat. No warnings- no need at this point and you don't win a gunfight with multiple people by giving them time to aim at you.

    The family with you actually helps in court if it ever gets there. Your actions are more reasonable and with the family along, it is not as easy to retreat as the common law would expect. In the end, it is what the jury thinks is reasonable to do in the situation.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  8. #38
    Member Array mamakennedy's Avatar
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    Been thinking about you scenario...it might be a good time to talk to the wife about self defense for her own protection and your daughter's protection. Maybe with a firearm, but at least take a few classes in something like Krav Maga.

    You can't be there every minute or every day.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws... serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Cesare Beccaria

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    My wife would be taking the boy to cover and covering her retreat with her own pistol. There are advantages to having two CCL's in the family, three if the daughter is along :)
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  10. #40
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    The original post said that you end up surrounded in a not so public place. If I am surrounded, I'm not willing to take a chance with pulling my weapon and not using it. With all the adrenaline flowing, depending on how tightly circled they are, I'd be too scared that one of the people around us would make a move on me for my gun. Even a few seconds of talk would be enough for someone to tackle you and get you down.

    How embarrassing would that be if they managed to wrestle your weapon from you, then proceed to do the duty? No time for talk. Not for me. I'm in the boat with everyone else, if its being deployed, they already moved past the point of talking.

  11. #41
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    If the threat is made I'm drawing and firing. No verbal warnings no nothing.

    They will have plenty of time to see me sweep my cover garment and draw to re-think their position. Anyone who hasn't turned and begun to run for their lives I would shoot.

    I'll take my chances in court if in the heat of the moment any one gets shot retreating. Their thoughts will turn to survival not predation.

    It will not be easy to get to my girls.

  12. #42
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    I would consider that a threat to my family and myself, I would draw, warn them to leave, and whom ever is left, start shooting. This is why I carry...to protect myself and family. I would rather be behind bars for shooting than do nothing and become a stastic!

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Katana's Avatar
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    I'll admit, if you threaten my 3 year old with rape, I'd be so seething with rage my actions might not be in my best interests in a court of law.I mean, we all try to keep a level head, but certain actions may lead us to have a bout of "temporary insanity."

    I just hope I can remember to stop firing if I'm ever put in a situation like that...

    I like to think I'm a fairly sensible and level-headed guy, but if my daughter was ever threatened like that, I just don't know what I'd be capable of. My blood is boiling at just the thought of this scenario.
    "Stand your ground, don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!" - John Parker April 19th, 1775 Lexington, MA

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  14. #44
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    re: mammaK, OT comment on take a few Krav Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by mamakennedy View Post
    Maybe with a firearm, but at least take a few classes in something like Krav Maga.
    Well intentioned advice, but not likely to help much in the scenario of five BGs on a family. Also, "a few classes" in Krav is insufficient.

    The BGs aren't going to fight the way you think they will, and a few classes won't prepare you for either the extreme violence or unfamiliar moves.

    Nothing will prepare you for that level of disparity of force plus the complication of having kiddos involved.

    A gun is the only response in this situation, and two guns, one in your hands and one in your spouse's hands is probably the only way to actually overcome the five on one advantage.

    Lots of folks have posted that you go for the mouth first and the rest will take off. Maybe. It could go quite differently. You could take the mouth out and in that split second one could grab the kid and another hit you from behind leaving the wife with no protection, and the BG holding your gun.

    It is a crappy situation best taken care of by taking care to never be in it in the first place.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Well intentioned advice, but not likely to help much in the scenario of five BGs on a family. Also, "a few classes" in Krav is insufficient.
    Some training is always gong to be better than no training. Also, one of the first things taught in a good SD class is situational awareness to keep you out of situations like the scenario the OP proposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The BGs aren't going to fight the way you think they will, and a few classes won't prepare you for either the extreme violence or unfamiliar moves.
    The only people who fight the way you think they will, that I have found, have been in sparing matches, or fights were both parties agree on the rules and have a referee to enforce the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Nothing will prepare you for that level of disparity of force plus the complication of having kiddos involved.
    I disagree with your absolute. With enough training, the whole family training, there is a possibility of wining over the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    A gun is the only response in this situation, and two guns, one in your hands and one in your spouse's hands is probably the only way to actually overcome the five on one advantage.
    I can see that firearms in both the hands of the mother and father would be the best option if found in this situation. However, if we place the gun as the only response to such a situation then those of us in restrictive places such as CA, HI, Chicago, NJ, NYC (and many more) are just out of luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Lots of folks have posted that you go for the mouth first and the rest will take off. Maybe. It could go quite differently. You could take the mouth out and in that split second one could grab the kid and another hit you from behind leaving the wife with no protection, and the BG holding your gun.

    It is a crappy situation best taken care of by taking care to never be in it in the first place.
    You are right, it is a crappy situation that you shouldn't get into in the first place. Most likely people would end up in the hospital and morgue, but not so likely that anyone would just walk away.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws... serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Cesare Beccaria

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