How would you react?
This is a discussion on How would you react? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I agree w/most of what's been said. I prolly should have left off the BGs run and don't fire a shot. That's not something that ...
December 19th, 2009 10:39 PM
I agree w/most of what's been said. I prolly should have left off the BGs run and don't fire a shot. That's not something that would be known til after the fact.
This scenario is based upon a local news story. I was not actually put in this position. But when I heard the news report it triggered some thoughts.
In this case, everyone appeared to comply (No information about any CCW patrons or not. I'm guessing not because it would not be legal to carry here - Class D liquor permit) and no one was physically harmed. I guess I looked at from 2 ways. 1) If I (you) draw, be prepared to shoot. So, would shooting (at) the BG be "justified"? I guess if I was put in the position I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
2) If I did draw, would are the chances of injury/harm to me or others increased or decreased. Like you guys say, where are the BGs, where are the other patrons, how many BGs, etc.
Knowing the outcome it's easy to say giving up my crappy cell phone is the way to go to avoid any risks. Just made me think.
Gun control is not about the guns...It's about the control.
Current primary carry: M&P9C & Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry II
December 19th, 2009 10:48 PM
I'm all for stopping criminals, but there's a time and place for everything. Whether I took any specific steps to terminate the threat right then would depend on the particular circumstances, as always.
That goes for any and every instance of forced compliance, IMO, particularly when lethal weapons are in play.
-You must feel as if your life or others is in danger
-You must attempt to avoid the danger
Of course, as some have said, wouldn't it be great to know what was going to happen? Avoiding the danger of being killed would be easy, then. But, that's fantasy. Can't know what karma doesn't reveal, until it's revealed. Until then, you do the best you can with the knowledge and perception of chances as you're able.
Originally Posted by Stevew
That's pretty much it.
Not knowing the outcome before the outcome I would determine the outcome myself when the opportunity presented itself.
If there are a number of patrons in the store and only two visible felons, it's highly likely that they'd eject as soon as obtaining the goods. However, there are plenty of examples of crimes where the felons then decide to terminate everyone ... whether for kicks, for penalty of having "dissed" them or making things difficult for them, or simply to silence witnesses.
But it would depend on the specific circumstances and flow of the situation, for me.
Two felons can be taken out. But it wouldn't be easy.
There could be any number of factors that could complicate things and kill the probability of surviving:
- They could have armor;
- They could be skilled at moving fast like cats, or far more practiced than I;
- They could have other weapons than simply pistols;
- A full-auto SBR could be devastating at close quarters;
- A semi-auto 12ga shotgun with drum wouldn't be something I'd want to test my luck against. Pistols, perhaps. But, against a pair of these? Not likely.
- They could take down the lights and have low-light vision devices during the crime.
- One family member could be there, or the whole family. Would I be willing to risk failure and then termination of my whole family? Nope.
That all being said, I'd be paying attention. The moment when chances were that nobody was going to make it out alive (ie, being herded to the back), it's time to act.
December 20th, 2009 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by MJK
Originally Posted by Spec
Originally Posted by retsupt99
i dont want to be the first one getting shot in this experiment...if they rifle the register and walk away i'm counting my blessings and hopefully nobody got hurt...if there is a settling in and patrons are on the list of robberies i dont want them anywhere near me...there are a lot of variables to consider including clear shooting lanes and whats going to happen if it turns into a gunfight...the chances against several armed assailants are poor unless youve got clear shots and the entire restaurant isnt going to be lit up...if i am being approached and i think my gun is going to be exposed then i want it to be a surprise that begins with me squeezing the bang switch on a carefully executed man stopping shot.... Bladenbullet
I'm in bladenbullet's camp on this one,
Thumper Hit it real good too!!
If its startin to look like a death camp march I'm going down swinging
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent
I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans
Don't ever think that the reason I'm peaceful is because I don't know how to be violent
M&Pc .357SIG, 2340Sigpro .357SIG
December 20th, 2009 11:03 AM
Too many people have no respect for life anymore,, If you were sure they would leave with the loot, Yea let them go,, When you bring watchs and rings and wallets into the mix, Thats different,,They will search then the problem gets worse,, The $64000.00 question is,, Will they let anyone live? Distraction and hopefully a few well placed shots, would end this nightmare.
December 20th, 2009 03:45 PM
Put me in the category of shooting the guy who presents a gun and by that alone threatens my life. I'm not psychic and he may very well be the next Leon "Pistol Pete" Dorsey who had no remorse whatsoever and even said he killed them "Cuz that's how I roll"
So close to home it aint funny, literally blocks away when it happened...
Man who killed Blockbuster employees blames victims, denies remorse | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News
His own words.
'SOULJA' Leon Dorsey -Texas Death Row
December 20th, 2009 04:22 PM
there are so many factors involved in this, can I get to my weapon first, with 2 of them then a 3 tap is out of the question which means I only have a initial 1 shot at each, so my answer would be that unless they come in shooting then I would have to refrain from firing if I did not have a clear shot at both them. in this situation you only have a couple of seconds to get off 2 shots at 2 different targets before getting return fire if those 2 shots are not on the mark and if you have never been in a firefight then odds of your 2nd shot hitting the target is greatly diminished because the second target is most likely taking aim at you as you are targeting them and seeing a gun aimed at you can cause you to pause when you need to be firing.
Glock 19 & Glock 26
Dept of State Diplomatic Security
December 20th, 2009 04:56 PM
I think alot of it will depend on how 'professional' they are.
"You are at your local pizzeria for dinner. Two armed males enter and force all the employees and patrons down. They proceed to rob the store and take cash, cell phones, jewelry etc. from the patrons.
BGs have guns but do not fire any shots."
If the two guys working the crowd are masked and aren't speaking to one another, just to the crowd, then they have their timing down, and are looking to get done and out.
I see two guys. What I don't see is who in the crowd is the third party to the crime. Who was there prepping for the robbery for the last 45mins? Which one of the 'patrons' is gonna put a .38 thru the back of my head when I draw my pistol? I also dont know where the getaway driver is. Is he in the car, or near the front door ready to assist if they robbery goes south for the 2 original robbers.
I have to weigh the known against the unknown and its potential outcome. Two armed guys- I'm already outmanned and outgunned. Another guy in the shop in advance, that's potentially three. Who here is that good? Maybe a driver backing up from outside. Not looking good for me.
The op makes no mention of our robbers escorting anyone to the freezer. Long as everyone is in the same room, and our guys are remaining calm, I'm gonna say roll with it untill something changes to make me believe I wont go home if I dont do something.
In the words of the op "After taking cash and valuable BGs run." So we work inside the parameters set up by the op. They run. They're now no longer a threat. Shows over, give your statement to the nice officer.
Now, the flip side is two armed morons burst into the place, shouting, panicky, confused, both giving orders to each other and the patrons. All bad signs. All indicators of two clowns w no plan. Our best hope is that they take the cash, some watches and skate. But, like I said, no plan. If they dont have a plan, they cant orchestrate their actions to dictate the patrons reactions, patrons cant comply correctly because Dumb and Dumber cant articulate what they want the patrons to due, cause they havent rehearsed this before, or enough. So where are we? Still two armed assailants. Not good odds. But they still havent moved anyone anywhere, so we may yet get out w/out any gunfire.
Let's now add that component that I call the "line in the sand". They try to seperate me from my wife and kids. Or the women from the group. Or try to lead everyone into the back room. That for me is a line in the sand. I believe at that point, I may not go home. So, now things will get very convoluted, very fast. But SOMETHING will be done, tools will be employed, training and tactics will be tested, and some luck will be called on. Exactly what happens, how I react would require our op to give quite a bit more detail to the robbery described.
December 20th, 2009 06:37 PM
I don't know what they are capable of but I know what previous armed robbers have done. Everything from walking out to murder to rape and torture. Armed robbery is considered a violent felony so unless I get really good vibes from the perps or caught in a hopeless twist of fate like having a gun barrel pointed at the back of my kid's head, it's action time. In a situation like that, any action is better than inaction. Roll the dice...
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
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