Interesting situation tonight.
This is a discussion on Interesting situation tonight. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The laws in MI pertaining to my situation are as follows.
* Must inform officer
* .02 BAC limit when carrying
*CAN carry in restaurants ...
December 20th, 2009 12:08 AM
Interesting situation tonight.
The laws in MI pertaining to my situation are as follows.
* Must inform officer
* .02 BAC limit when carrying
*CAN carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, but not in bars
I was out celebrating my sisters birthday. Her, a friend, myself, and my gf were having dinner in a bistro/pub. Everyone there was eating with the exception of two or three people at the bar. And not everyone was drinking, so, it was definitely deriving more of it's income from the sale of food than alcohol.
When I first got there, my gf and I ordered a sampler of their beer. This came in 4 shot sized glasses, which we split. I also tasted my sisters, which was two or three sips at most. I had 5 slices of pizza, a glass of water, and a rootbeer.
We were all sitting there, right about the second hour, when a LEO walks right up to us and asks my sisters friend if he could speak with him. A few minutes later he came back, ad the story was that someone had lost a wallet and the cops questioned him. Maybe 30 seconds after he got back a second officer approached us again and asked to speak with me.
I got up and walked to the entryway area where a second officer stood (the first one who approached us). After introducing myself to them, shaking their hands and getting their names, I informed them that I have a CPL and was carrying.
They proceeded to question me about a lost wallet, if I had it, knew anything, etc. I informed them that I had been here two hours, left my chair twice for the restroom, and hadn't seen any wallet. Also, if I had found one, I would of turned it in (which I've done with wallets and cell phones before).
They kept questioning me and then threatened me with checking the security cameras. That didn't bother me as I had nothing to be afraid of.
So after a few minutes of questions, they asked me if I had been drinking. I told them less than one, after which I was turned around, had my hands up on the back of my head. My fingers were locked together and I was relieved of my weapon. Now this was in viewing area of HALF OF THE RESTAURANT.
We went outside, and they asked me again how much I had to drink. I replied that my gf and I split a sample of the beer, which translated to 2 shot glasses worth of beer, which really is not even half of one drink. They ran the serial numbers on my gun, and gave me a breathalyzer test. Never told me what I blew, but I'm assuming it was nothing. One officer handed me my magazine back, told me to put it in my pocket, and then handed back my gun as he told me it wasn't a good idea to carry in there and I should "leave it in the car."
I promptly reholstered and walked back in to take my seat.
Now, I understand that a LEO's number one job is to return home safely at night. I understand that one bit. The part that does bother me, is the two of us getting singled out. They never questioned anyone else in the whole place. My girlfriend had a view of the door from her seat and watched them from the time they came in through the whole thing.
I showed them respect, by giving them my name and shaking their hands, and by informing them right away. If they were concerned about me carrying, then why wouldn't they disarm me right away? Instead they waited until after they questioned me, which was fine. But then why not step outside, out of the view of everyone, and take my carry piece then? The looks I got when I returned to the restaurant...you would of thought I was some convict!
Just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this...it was quite the interesting night.
A few final comments. If your going to drink, yes it is better to not carry. I was well within my rights to do what I did, and followed the letter of the law. If it was later in the evening, instead of 5:30, I might not of carried. But the fact that I went in to have dinner at a restaurant, instead of a drink at a pub, to me makes all the difference.
I'm thinking of writing the town PD, as I feel they could of been more professional in their dealings, or at least told us the truth as to why they were questioning us; not profiling us either.
Better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees.
December 20th, 2009 12:40 AM
I would contact a lawyer and the ACLU. End of story.. According to your story, I think they went a bit overboard. Especially relieving you of your weapon and running the serial # on it without and probable cause. If they had the ability to run through the security camera on a lost wallet, why didn't the lazy asses do that in the first place? And all this hassle for a lost wallet? Jeez? Bored officer?
December 20th, 2009 12:43 AM
Did you get their badge numbers?
Do you want to follow up with a complaint?
You have a right to know what you blew on the test?
They had no right to tell you to leave it in the car where it could be stolen.
I guess they do have a problem with background checked people in Michigan stealing wallets. Aren't cops background checked too.
The People Think the Constitution Protects Their Rights;
Government See IT as an Obstacle to be Over-come.
December 20th, 2009 12:46 AM
Poor judgment and discretion, and while a call to their superiors would be in order, I doubt it would change anything. They could have at the very least asked you to step out of public view before they disarmed you.
If they were there looking for a lost wallet that should have been their main objective unless they observed something serious. Had you been visibly intoxicated and in possession of a weapon I would say they had merit to do what they did. You obviously were not...
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27
December 20th, 2009 01:05 AM
Try to file Freedom of Information Act paperwork to get all communications about the incident. Should be able to get radio, phone, email, text, etc. It's public info, and you have a right to it. Particularly since it applies to you. I can't help you on how to do it other than contacting the department and asking how. Should be able to find out if they were there for a wallet or something else. Then again, if there is no legit traffic on the incident it's of no help. Depends on how hard you want to push it. It would bother me too. Armed AND dangerous has apparently turned into armed IS dangerous.
December 20th, 2009 01:08 AM
Time to contact a lawyer and have a letter written...time to make cops with poor judgements (according to your story) realize the mistakes they may have made. Paper trails will eventually point out the 'door' to cops with poor judgements made on a regular basis.
I wouldn't let it slide, but that's just me.
Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
December 20th, 2009 01:27 AM
I would ask the restantaunt (sp) how long they hold tape or is it DVD. If it is DVD can they burn you a copy or load video in thumb drive. I would explain that there is going to be a pending lawsuit and need a copy of at least prevent them from deleteing the video.
December 20th, 2009 02:58 AM
From what you say in your story, you were harrassed in a completely unreasonable way by Law Enforcement Officers.
They were obviously mad that you managed to filch their 'fermented fluid' funds and outsmart them, as well. You should use their own beer money to hire a lawyer and sue them for more of their sweaty money (or, rather, their departments money).
But, seriously... if you let them get away with this, we all lose. This whole thing is just a big bowl of wrong.
December 20th, 2009 03:10 AM
Dont know what the local PD is like down there, but the whole thing sounds fishy to me. Did your GF or sister or her friend rub some one the wrong way? Did some drunk report his wallet stolen (left it in the bathroom because he is drunk) call the police and say that you and your buddy stole it from him? Did some namby pamby ANTI see you take two shots (We know it was beer, but maybe they thought it was tequila) and freak out because they saw you printing? All I am saying is that most encounters similar to this have two sides to them and neither side always does the best job of getting the whole story out, mostly because they are unaware of the other side.
Also I would not hesitate to tell any one who is drinking and carrying that they might want to disarm while I am speaking to them in an official capacity - I have no way of knowing what their drinking plans are for the night and preffer to remind people that alcohol and guns dont mix, just like alcohol and cars dont.
My two cents, take it for what its worth.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
December 20th, 2009 04:47 AM
Don't take these questions as indirect criticism, because they aren't intended to be. Were you required to inform them of your CPL at that point of the interview? If not, did they ask you specifically about it? I understand you wanting to be up front with them, I'm just not familiar with MI laws of notification. You state at the top of your post that you are required to notify them, but I was just curious at what point are you required to do that. Is it required only during traffic stops, or is it required with any contact with LEO? Thanks.
Originally Posted by Jackle1886
December 20th, 2009 06:29 AM
We've got a couple like that in my town. Off on their own little power trip it seems. I'd try to look "down the road" at where this could go if I pursued this with the authorities. I appreciate the feeling of being "violated" like that and would want to fight like hell to preserve my reputation. On the other hand, I might have to deal with these two geniuses again sometime. Tough call. Good luck with your decision. Hope it works out the best for you.
December 20th, 2009 06:30 AM
"I promptly reholstered and walked back in to take my seat. "
Bet that made you feel good!
December 20th, 2009 09:34 AM
No, I'm not cop-bashing, but sometimes putting a badge on a person instantly transforms them into an anus....
December 20th, 2009 09:57 AM
That whole situation with the police strikes me as odd. Some people don't handle power well. Often times the people who are the most responsible with power are those who, 1. Have a healthy dose of humility and respect. 2. They are not eager to possess it.
December 20th, 2009 10:11 AM
+1 That was my thought, mainly because it was in the face of the cop that was overbearing and out of line but also showed the restaurant you're not some criminal that deserved what happened - otherwise you'd be gone in cuffs. You won that one.
Originally Posted by mikcap
I'd forgo the tasting beer thing while armed though, just so no one could accuse you.
Can't help but think the wallet thing was a ruse for getting to the gun part but if you were concealed then who would see it and freak enough to call the police? That would leave someone in your party trying to get at you knowing you're armed and just had some beer - hoping your life was screwed for it. Don't know what to think about that aspect. You really trust everyone in your party?
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