Any EMT/Paramedics that carry? I have a question.

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Thread: Any EMT/Paramedics that carry? I have a question.

  1. #16
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    Two words to solve this conundrum:
    Shot placement.

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  3. #17
    Ski
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    If you are involved in a self defense shooting remember:

    You are an EMT not LE. You have not gone through the training to safely ensure a downed assailant is disarmed and no longer a threat.

    You are also no longer a disinterested party. You are most likely in the middle of an adrenalin dump with only gross motor skills working and you need to maintain the area as safe until LE arrives.

    Don't get tunnel vision on one assailant, keep watch for a partner that may not be obvious yet.

    Any treatment you render may be misconstrued as detrimental if things go bad for the bad guy.

    Maintain your safety and the safety of others in the immediate area and wait for help to arrive. Keep your distance from the assailant. Don't forget to reholster or lay your handgun down upon arrival of LE. If you can be on the phone prior to their arrival you can identify yourself a little easier.
    Well said.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    Two words to solve this conundrum:
    Shot placement.

    That will do it.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

  5. #19
    Member Array wormtown's Avatar
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    Back in the day (about 20 years ago now) I was an EMT in a bad part of a big city that had a much higher gun violence rate than it does now. We were not allowed to carry firearms or knives on duty. We did carry maglights and heavy clipboards that were sometimes useful for other than their intended purposes.
    More importantly, we NEVER got out of the bus if the PD weren't already onscene. In fact we would circle if needed. No lights on inside the ambulance either. We took a couple of potshots to the bus over the years, though it was never clear if it was aimed at us or random. Some wore body armor. I couldn't afford it at the time. Even given all that, I never had a situation where being armed would have been helpful.
    Later after I moved to a more suburban setting that was supposedly safer, there was a much lighter police and fire presence for support and we were often alone onscene, and though we never had an issue, I felt more vulnerable, and would have carried if it were at all permissible.
    Remember, your most important two assets armed or not will be your SA and your radio.

    It was great work, but poorly paid, and tough on the back (we only had the old Ferno model 30 that had to be lifted manually, and of course, only fat people live in 3rd floor walkups). Good luck, stay safe.
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  6. #20
    New Member Array kmajors's Avatar
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    The best medicine in a firefight is lead.

    If you shoot, withdraw and call 911.

    Any other action you take as a "caregiver" will be used against you by any lawyer worth his salt.

  7. #21
    Member Array ScubaDuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    Two words to solve this conundrum:
    Shot placement.

    Well that's a debate stopper! I shot two deer today, killed them dead where they stood. Well, they may have kicked once or twice. Yes, shot placement is critical criteria in the National Registry Standard for threat elimination.
    Healthy children will not fear life, if their parents have integrity enough not to fear death.
    -TIME DEUM ET OPERARE IUSTITIAM--

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    I was a Paramedic for 10 years - I doubt I would be handling the perp for any purpose post shoot...

    my Dad just retired again (71 y.o. deputy/court security/corrections officer) he advised me that unless you can cuff their hands behind their back they may still kill you YMMV but I don't carry cuffs anymore... and do not own a pair. I will call EMS and LEOs (we have moved into town and response is less than a minute now! )

  9. #23
    Member Array Dustinmk4's Avatar
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    It sounds like I was thinking about the same as most. If involved in a SD shooting I'm most likely to just wait for LEO. Remember this scenario is with me off duty with the family or what not. As an on duty EMT in my area LEO usually responds with us cause they have nothing else to do. So that is a completely different issue.

    Thanks for the insight, keep it coming.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post

    I do know a medic who shot a lady onscene. Many years ago, decades before I became a paramedic. One half of a domestic charged him and his patient with a knife. He drew a Charter Arms .38 and shot her. Worked both patients, the assailant he shot died. He was fired but later won a settlement against his employer. Seems they had no rule that said he couldn't carry. It was a private ambulance service. He was never charged with a crime or sued.

    .
    I think I read about that. The case I read about, the Medic shot the perp while 2 LEOs just stood there. He got another job in a neighboring jurisdiction. Didn't hear he sued his former employer. I'd be interested in any documentation of the case.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  11. #25
    Member Array NYCMedic's Avatar
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    As long as you are off duty I can not imagine that you have a "duty to act" (although states' laws vary). In addition, I would not get near them unless I had a good pair of protective gloves on (I favor P2s) and the prep was unarmed and either cuffed or unconscious. I think that I would be more worried about what I am saying to the police and contacting my lawyer than treating someone who just tried to kill me.
    And yes, as was already mentioned, I hope that shot placement will render treatment unnecessary!
    Bleeding-heart reporter: “Do you feel that violence begets violence?”
    Jeff Cooper: “It is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure - and in some cases I have - that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more than he can enjoy."

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    I agree and then some

    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    Two words to solve this conundrum:
    Shot placement.

    Shot placement for sure, and if I have to shoot someone, I plan to shoot to kill and continue shooting until they are a condition where no amount of medical care will help them. Obviously not to the point of standing over them execution style, but if they are still capable of causing me or my family harm, I don't intend to let that happen.

    Besides, I don't want to have to worry about them healing and then coming back for revenge.
    Walk softly ...

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Dustinmk4;1416904]

    I realize that the main thing I have to worry about when on call is scene safety so in that aspect I'm thinking that if I had to draw then he scene is not safe and I should not work the guy I shot. But on the other hand if he is unconsious he can't be much of a threat.


    QUOTE]

    COME ON! havn't you watched all the Friday the Thirteen and Halloween Movies. The bad guy always comes back to life!

    Seriously the very aid you are rendering may indeed bring the BG back consious and give him enough strength to grab your gun.

    Don't you think he's liable to be a little ticked off because you just shot a hole thru his favorite hoodie?

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=NC Bullseye;1417008]If you are involved in a self defense shooting remember:


    Any treatment you render may be misconstrued as detrimental if things go bad for the bad guy.

    QUOTE]

    You mean I shouldn't try to remove the bullet with a fire ax?

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    70002:
    It was in western PA and there were two LEOs there who retreated past my friend. He did get employed by a hospital-based service after.


    You're not going to believe this, but I just met a retired medic working as a dental hygenist who was shot in the line of EMS duty. She was onscene of a domestic and when the cops mentioned arresting the other half a gunfight broke out with her in the middle. I can't verify the story is true but I saw the scars... From what she described, being armed wouldn't have helped her due to the rapidly developing scene. All the responders treated her first, including the LEOs, and the BG was left untreated until after she left on her helicopter ride according to her.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    What Bullseye said only if the stars align and you are in that one in a million scenario that you KNOW it would be safe to render aid, don't get caught NOT rendering aid.
    Quote Originally Posted by doctruptwn View Post
    Basically there is some factor in what your local state law says, however, Most state require that YOU have a "duty to Act" to be accountable for not rendering care. ie: If your off duty and involved in a self defense shooting. YOU have "no duty to act" There fore I would agree with everyone else, get yourself safe and call 911.
    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    One other scenario I've heard from the MMQB's is that if you do render aid after a self defense shooting the assailant's legal council approaches it as that you realized that you were wrong in using deadly force and were trying to save the "victim" after you realized you goofed.

    Not a valid argument but we all know what a jury of your peers REALLY means.

    ^^^^^ WoW, very good food for thought^^^^^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by bakes View Post
    I'm a medic,

    I don't feel that I can honestly say that a threat no longer exists...

    Maybe the BG is laying there waiting for you to get closer to harm you?...
    ^^^^^kinda sneaky^^^^^^!!! Maybe good advice^^^^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    Two words to solve this conundrum:
    Shot placement.

    SSSHHHH!!!^^^^^^





    My brother is a firefighter/paramedic, I am having his son show him this thread.



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