Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep - Page 2

Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep

This is a discussion on Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; These are always interesting threads like’ any of us really know what we’ll actually do if the armchair turns into real life. Anyway, my fantasy ...

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Thread: Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep

  1. #16
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    These are always interesting threads like’ any of us really know what we’ll actually do if the armchair turns into real life.

    Anyway, my fantasy reaction is to do nothing, unless I’m ‘personally’ compromised. If the guys don’t approach me, direct me or physically threaten me, I’m good with laying low. However, if I sense otherwise, then I’ll take the shot(s) and hope for the best
    .
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King


  2. #17
    Member Array G30shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimtem View Post
    Heres the scenario. You are in a business and 2 gunmen enter. They are robbing at gunpoint. They are a dozen feet apart. Both are armed and the 1st is collecting cash, jewelry etc while the 2nd is covering the 1st and scanning the dozen or so patrons of the business. There is no chance you could even discretely dial 911 from your cell. But you could draw and get a shot to the body of one of the gunmen easily.
    I respectfully submit that there is more we don't know about this situation then that which we do (I say this at the same time as I fully recognize the difficulty in describing any hypothetical scenario).

    For instance we do not know the attitude of the "gunmen"; calm, agitated, yelling, nervous, etc. Also what are they saying? Are they getting more agitated/threatening or is the situation more or less stable? How are they armed? Do they appear to be wearing body armor? Do they appear to be well trained?

    More importantly, what is the orientation of innocent bystanders to one another, you, and to the shooters; do innocents include members of your family and are they in more immediate danger then you are, are other innocents directly in the line of fire (including down range), within arms reach, etc? Have we sought cover or concealment successfully or were we caught as "deer in the headlights?"

    If we are applying OODA, we would/should collect the foregoing facts in the very first seconds of the incident. Since shooting has not started, we would all things being equal be better off waiting and observing carefully - for now - readying ourselves for the instant that drawing our weapon, aiming it and firing it to stop the threat are necessary. In that light, we would do well to continuosly evaluate each BG in an effort to determine which presented the most significant threat to us and the other by standers.

    Perhaps the most important thing scenarios like this do for us, is to train us to evaluate what we don't know but need to know - to train us how to run through the OODA loop and how to determine when we have enough information or have evluated enough potential courses of action to make a reasonably good tactical decision.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    I have not heard that mentioned on any threads for a loooooong time.

    For those not familiar with the OODA Loop Here you go;

    John Boyd - OODA Loop Theory
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    drawing a weapon and turning a robbery into a gunfight is liable to create a bloodbath and i for one am not in the mood to explain to the police or my lawyer why i decided to create a more dangerous situation and the probable loss of life if it was possible i did not have to...

    until there is a viable threat of violence i am going to be collecting as much information as my brain will carry...i believe regardless of how the situation plays i will have the element of surprize in the event i decide to draw my firearm but i will not make that choice until i see no other options...

    even an inkling of herding or search will probably make that decision for me...i dont care how much you practice or how good a shot you think you are there are going to be variables that you have no control over including the reactions of other patrons when you display your weapon...this is not a range and you are going to surprize and panic everyone in the room when you hit the bang switch...there are no definates....the plan changes as soon as it begins...

  5. #20
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    The odds are against you. Plus, are they robbing individuals, or the customers? If they're only taking the store's property, let them go. It's not worth the risk to the customers to start a shootout and the store owner probably has insurance to cover his losses.

    Now, if they act to shoot a customer(s), then it's time to act, not only for your safety, but for all the others. Take down the backup first.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  6. #21
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    If the robbers have half a brain they will be aware of the potential for an armed person in the crowd and will have planned for it. There could be a 3d person set up to observe and act as needed hidden in the crowd. Best to do nothing unless and until you are personally at significant risk and defending yourself is the best option.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I'm with Retsupt99 on this one. I'm just a good witness and most likely not shooting. But, if things go South, I'm gonna go Ape-poop!

    Now, if you were forced to shoot, there's a pretty good chance you could get both. It would be a complete surprise to both of them (unless they're militant types like Montesoranu or whatever from the North Hollywood bank shoot-out), and there's a very good chance the second would have no idea where the shots came from. If you're good and practice often, shooting the second would just be a continuous flow from shooting the first.... Just like IDPA, for a weak example, you don't pause (much) between targets.

    Now, this is saying we are in the most dire of situations, and we live in a state where we are legally justified to drop someone committing a robbery, like my lovely state of TEXAS.

    When the first shots are fired, BG 2 is going to look to BG 1 in most instances thinking he's the one shooting. by the time he realizes BG 1 is down, you've already hit him a couple of times.

    Now, this is all a "what-if" we were absolutely forced to shoot. I'd give no warning and hope to have at least one of them with their back to me. I just read a good article from Armed American Report about shooting one from behind while he's robbing someone at a store.. It asks you to visualize everything in pretty graphic detail, from the break of the trigger, the recoil, the noise, the gun coming back on target, the damage the bullet does the the BG, the shock and spatter on the teller/clerk, etc.

    http://armedamericanreport.org/2009/12/ - Scroll down to "The Question of Killing" article

    Now, in the one robbery I was in, I barely knew what was going on. I was 19 years old at the time. Looking back, if I had been armed, I would have done everything exactly the same. 999 out of 1000, they want the money and they leave. When someone does get hot, it's usually a security guard going for his gun, or well before he goes for his gun. Most often, it's convenience stores clerks that get the worst of it, and most times when no one else is there.

    Not saying it doesn't happen, just not often enough for me to start shooting right off the bat. Every situation is different. In the robbery I was in, I wasn't really afraid for my life, even when I finally realized what was happening. now, when I was car-jacked/kidnapped, I was in fear for my life from the first moment on. Especially, when the second guy was playing with a long piece of wire, not unlike piano-wire. It wasn't so much the gun, but that wire had my heart racing at first.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    "Fortunately, given a crime wherein offenders often brandish weapons or threaten bank personnel with bodily harm, violence and injury occurred in only 2.34 percent of bank robberies between 1996 and 2000. The incidence of murder, kidnaping and/or hostage taking occurred in less than 1 percent of the crimes examined."

    This is an excerpt from this article - A breakdown of bank robbery trends - AdirondackDailyEnterprise.com | News, Sports, Jobs, Saranac Lake region ? Adirondack Daily Enterprise

    So, no... most likely I would not shoot, as I stated above.

    *EDIT - I did believe we were talking banks, so that's why I quoted the article. I believe it's a very similar percentage in most other robberies as well.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    If the robbers have half a brain they will be aware of the potential for an armed person in the crowd and will have planned for it. There could be a 3d person set up to observe and act as needed hidden in the crowd. Best to do nothing unless and until you are personally at significant risk and defending yourself is the best option.
    great point and thought provoking...

  10. #25
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    What if in this situation they cause their victims to lay on the floor and then work the group one by one for valuables, and possible execution of witnesses?

    If they say on the floor then (I believe it is time to draw and fire, they may well win but they will know they were in a fight for their lives).
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
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    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
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  11. #26
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK87 View Post
    Depends. Are they searching people to make sure they aren't holding back..........
    Even if they are checking to see if people are holding back my issue with this scenario is that If I draw I am sure that I could hit 1 but as I turn to hit the other either I or someone next to me will get hit. I am split 50/50 on whether no one would be harmed if I don't draw.

    To me its irrelevant if they steal my wallet along with my gun. But on the contrary if they shot a patron I would then draw regardless. So if they robbed me and got my gun and then shot a patron I would have wished I had drawn. But if they rob and leave with no one injured then IO will be thankful that I didn't draw even if they did steal my gun.
    Last edited by jimtem; December 29th, 2009 at 05:31 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    ................... I'm a witness until they start searching (emptying pockets for people), shoot someone, or start herding people to a back room.
    So you would draw if they start emptying pockets for people? If they empty pockets for people and you double tap the cover guy and then the bag man unloads in your direction and kills the lady next to you then in a way you got that lady killed.

  13. #28
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhh3rd View Post
    Feign or probably have a heart attack. Fall to ground and thrash like a fish out of water. Probably urinate too.
    If I was holding up a business and someone fell to the floor pretending to have a heart attack I would shot the person for suspicion.

  14. #29
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RebelRabbi View Post
    Shoot when lose of life or discovery of your weapon is imminent. .............
    I just don't think that having my gun stolen warrants risking fire on those around me. If it was just me then I would have fired at first sight but its the innocent people around me that make this such an issue for me. I am sure this will never happen to me but if it ever did I want the get some incite before hand.

  15. #30
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    ............ The good thing is the crowd, lots of people with tables, pillars, desks, and walls can be your friend...think about putting something between you and the guns, if possible.......................
    That's a good idea. Instead of just drawing and shooting -jump behind a pillar, desk etc. and put some distance between you and the innocent patrons so at least if you decide the be a vigilante you are not drawing fire to some poor individual standing next to you.

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