Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep - Page 3

Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep

This is a discussion on Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by sillyrabbit If the first is carrying a bag? collecting cash cash and jewelery.... he's not paying attention to what's around him, so ...

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Thread: Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep

  1. #31
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sillyrabbit View Post
    If the first is carrying a bag? collecting cash cash and jewelery.... he's not paying attention to what's around him, so I direct my 'primary' attention to the second guy.
    Very good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by sillyrabbit View Post
    Your scenario says I can get a shot off... and the Law in my state says I CAN shoot if apparent deadly consequences or serious bodily injury are imminent to myself or others (my paraphrasing). Therefore I WOULD draw (when I best could, considering cover, bystanders, back drop and locations of the BG's) and double tap the second guy (hopefully he would be the one easiest hit)
    Right, bystanders are my biggest concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by sillyrabbit View Post
    One shot to COM and one to the head and immediately cover the other guy demanding he drop his weapon! Should their be any aggressive movement on his behalf I would regrettably be compelled do the same thing to him as the first....
    Really???, would I be in the wrong then because I would shoot the second gunman as fast as humanly possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by sillyrabbit View Post
    4 shots (aimed) in 1.5-2 seconds is absolutely doable even under stress for any of us even semi-practiced (we are at least semi-practiced right? or we wouldn't be carrying right?) and when the covering shooter is hit (my first target), the bag man has to recognize what happened, decide his action after hearing my command, react and either move/shoot or stop, all in less than one (1) second. He would be down (shot) by then (under your scenario) and my statement of 4 shots in less than 2 seconds, which means (should I not want to warn the 'bag-man' to drop his gun; it would be double tap first guy (1 second) and 1 second to do same to bag man. I AM not Rambo and NOT the a professional, but I do train and know I can do this easily (the time part) and accurately (practice)
    I do train. I put about 300 rounds down range a month doing drills from a Matt Canovi practical self defense guide book. Do you think I am being pessimistic in believing that I or the people next to me would be killed at the time that I would be turning towards the 2nd gunman?


    Quote Originally Posted by sillyrabbit View Post


    ............ I will have to reach for my wallet and move on of my weapons to get it..... so........ not good! could I do it without him seeing my gun and let him leave? MAYBE! but not likely![/I]
    Hypothetically if they do rob and leave isn't it better for them to steal your gun than for you to open fire and risk harm and death to yourself and innocent others?

    Quote Originally Posted by sillyrabbit View Post
    they (BG's) came into the business with gun drawn, for me to wait to see what happens? That, is exactly what causes innocent people to die unnecessarily.

    The BG's are counting on NO ONE doing anything! that's the idea of coming in with guns drawn, to intimidate and threaten and cause "the sheep" to freeze and acquiesce. Then, they can do what they want.....!!! including shooting any and all if they wish. Will they? I don't know! But I for one.... will not give them the chance IF I have a chance to do anything about it!
    I agree 50%....... Part of me says that they are going to shot so I better shoot first. The other 50% says that they will only shoot if I cause them to shoot.


  2. #32
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob O View Post
    First scenario, assuming they don't notice me.

    If they are disguised the chances they will eliminate all witnesses is low. So I would not draw.

    If they are not disguised the chances of them shooting witnesses is much greater. So I would draw and double tap the guard, then double tap the collector. Then keep shooting at the highest perceived threat until they are stopped or I am.


    Second scenario, if they can see me well.

    If they are disguised the chances they will eliminate all witnesses is low. So I would not draw.

    If they are not disguised the chances of them shooting witnesses is much greater. So I would not try to draw on them unless I was sure they were going to shoot or started shooting, or if they took their eyes of me long enough for me to be pretty sure I could have a good chance of success.

    Bobo
    I'm pretty comfortable with that if that were the case but like I said. There is zero chance that you could even discreetly cal 911,,,, they see you well.

  3. #33
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G30shooter View Post
    ..........we do not know the attitude of the "gunmen" calm, agitated, yelling, nervous, etc. Also what are they saying? Are they getting more agitated/threatening or is the situation more or less stable? How are they armed? Do they appear to be wearing body armor? Do they appear to be well trained?
    I intentionally left that out because:

    Agitated gunman sometimes shoot people
    Calm gunman sometimes shoot people.
    Agitated gunman sometimes don't shoot people
    Calm gunman sometimes don't shoot people.

    Quote Originally Posted by G30shooter View Post
    More importantly, what is the orientation of innocent bystanders to one another, you, and to the shooters; do innocents include members of your family and are they in more immediate danger then you are, are other innocents directly in the line of fire (including down range), within arms reach, etc? Have we sought cover or concealment successfully or were we caught as "deer in the headlights?"
    Like I said you are not even able to discreetly pull you cellphone from your pocket to call 911. If the bystanders were not in the line of fire or not standing beside me then this would be a much easier question. Also if someone was in immediate danger and it was obvious that they were about to harm someone then this would be easy, I would shoot.

    Quote Originally Posted by G30shooter View Post
    If we are applying OODA, we would/should collect the foregoing facts in the very first seconds of the incident. Since shooting has not started, we would all things being equal be better off waiting and observing carefully - for now - readying ourselves for the instant that drawing our weapon, aiming it and firing it to stop the threat are necessary. In that light, we would do well to continuously evaluate each BG in an effort to determine which presented the most significant threat to us and the other by standers.


    Perhaps the most important thing scenarios like this do for us, is to train us to evaluate what we don't know but need to know - to train us how to run through the OODA loop and how to determine when we have enough information or have evaluated enough potential courses of action to make a reasonably good tactical decision.
    I totally agree.

  4. #34
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    drawing a weapon and turning a robbery into a gunfight is liable to create a bloodbath and i for one am not in the mood to explain to the police or my lawyer why i decided to create a more dangerous situation and the probable loss of life if it was possible i did not have to..

    until there is a viable threat of violence i am going to be collecting as much information as my brain will carry...i believe regardless of how the situation plays i will have the element of surprise in the event i decide to draw my firearm but i will not make that choice until i see no other options...
    I completely agree.

    even an inkling of herding or search will probably make that decision for me......[/QUOTE]

    So if they move e=people to a back room or is they start searching everyone's pockets then you shoot? Searching pockets or moving the group to a back room doesn't exactly mean harm. Although my fear factor would go from a 10 to a 1,000 when they decide to heard us to a back room it still is just fear and not as if they were lining people up execution style. Help me out, I need some feedback on this.

  5. #35
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    "Fortunately, given a crime wherein offenders often brandish weapons or threaten bank personnel with bodily harm, violence and injury occurred in only 2.34 percent of bank robberies between 1996 and 2000. The incidence of murder, kidnaping and/or hostage taking occurred in less than 1 percent of the crimes examined..
    Thanks, thats good info.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by searcher 45 View Post
    What if in this situation they cause their victims to lay on the floor and then work the group one by one for valuables, and possible execution of witnesses?

    If they say on the floor then (I believe it is time to draw and fire, they may well win but they will know they were in a fight for their lives).
    This would definitely cause me to go from scared stupid to panicked. I really don't know what would be the best thing to do in this situation.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimtem View Post

    Originally Posted by Sticks
    ................... I'm a witness until they start searching (emptying pockets for people), shoot someone, or start herding people to a back room.
    So you would draw if they start emptying pockets for people? If they empty pockets for people and you double tap the cover guy and then the bag man unloads in your direction and kills the lady next to you then in a way you got that lady killed.
    Not sure what would happen. The whole dynamic of the situation is changing every .5 second. I have a responsibility to limit the risk to the people around me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimtem View Post
    If I was holding up a business and someone fell to the floor pretending to have a heart attack I would shot the person for suspicion.
    Now I'm outta here. Have fun kids.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Thank you jimtem, bladenbullet and several others for bringing some sense of reality to this thread. When I start seeing statements about "flying lead" etc. I start to get very nervous to realize the strange land that some of these posters live in; thank goodness the majority of the posters provide informative and thoughtful comments even in the face of commentary by one or two dirty harrys.

  9. #39
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Thank you jimtem, bladenbullet and several others for bringing some sense of reality to this thread. When I start seeing statements about "flying lead" etc. I start to get very nervous to realize the strange land that some of these posters live in; thank goodness the majority of the posters provide informative and thoughtful comments even in the face of commentary by one or two dirty harrys.
    Your welcome. This is a scenario that really bugs me. In all the scenarios I have read on the forum I felt sure and OK with the actions I would take but something like this is disturbing. I think most people would not put others in danger by trowing fire into such a complicated situation.

    P.S. And the comment I made about shooting some one who jumped on the floor and faked a heart attack, what I'm saying is that I could see a gunman shooting someone like that just because it looked like a problem.

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Not sure what would happen. The whole dynamic of the situation is changing every .5 second. I have a responsibility to limit the risk to the people around me.

    Now I'm outta here. Have fun kids.
    drawing your weapon is not limiting the risk to the people around you unless they are already in danger of being shot or beaten...it is drawing attention to your position and theres if they are in close proximity to you...most gunfight situations involve lots of shots that dont hit their mark...thats you...that means the misses are hitting other things...them is a good possibility...

    idpa is great training...but the targets dont shoot back and your timer isnt in any danger....but he still stays behind you doesnt he?...

  11. #41
    Member Array steelhawk's Avatar
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    In this scenario, I am not sure what I would do.

    If I could, I definitely would have my gun drawn and kept out of sight.

    I would be more inclined to shoot if they started searching people or putting them in a back room, as has already been suggested.

    If there were friends of mine or family in the store, I would defend them, if possible.

    I practice enough in self defense scenarios that I feel I could take out one bad guy without missing and putting customers at risk. Dealing with the second bad guy is full of variables. He could freeze, run, or just open fire. Taking him out could be harder to do.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array shooterX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Be a good witness
    +1 unless discovery or loss of life starts occuring.

  13. #43
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Be a good witness and if they start shooting then draw and shoot back
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18CFw0lnD8

    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

  14. #44
    Member Array G30shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimtem View Post
    I intentionally left that out because:

    Agitated gunman sometimes shoot people
    Calm gunman sometimes shoot people.
    Agitated gunman sometimes don't shoot people
    Calm gunman sometimes don't shoot people.
    My point was not/is not to criticize you or your hypothetical situation ... instead I meant to point out the importance of situational awareness and being sensitive to the fluid/evolving/differential actions of the perps - which based on the rest of your post, is a point we appear to agree upon.

  15. #45
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G30shooter View Post
    My point was not/is not to criticize you or your hypothetical situation ... instead I meant to point out the importance of situational awareness and being sensitive to the fluid/evolving/differential actions of the perps - which based on the rest of your post, is a point we appear to agree upon.
    I didnt take it a criticism, i was just explaining what I was thinking,,,,, sorry if it came out rude.

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