Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep

Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep

This is a discussion on Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Heres the scenario. You are in a business and 2 gunmen enter. They are robbing at gunpoint. They are a dozen feet apart. Both are ...

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Thread: Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep

  1. #1
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Multiple armed assailants and numerous sheep

    Heres the scenario. You are in a business and 2 gunmen enter. They are robbing at gunpoint. They are a dozen feet apart. Both are armed and the 1st is collecting cash, jewelry etc while the 2nd is covering the 1st and scanning the dozen or so patrons of the business. There is no chance you could even discretely dial 911 from your cell. But you could draw and get a shot to the body of one of the gunmen easily.

    Here is my problem with this scenario:

    1) I could probably shoot 1 but I or the people around me would get shot before I could return fire to the other gunman. There would be innocent casualties.

    2) The gunmen might just rob and leave, harming no one.

    3) The gunmen might shot innocent patrons regardless of resistance.

    What would you do?


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    What would you do?
    Be a good witness

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    Depends. Are they searching people to make sure they aren't holding back, or just collecting wallets? If you think they might find your weapon, it doesn't help to wait until they get to you. Decide to be aggressive enough, early enough.

    If they are just demanding wallets and jewelry and you're well concealed, you could just go along with it. Multiple bad guys with their guns out vs. you without a gun out is not a good starting point for a gunfight. You need to at least be able to draw without being noticed to have a 'shot' at getting them both.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Of course this all depends on where I am at when they start, and where they move around to.

    Do they look like they know what they are doing, or just pointing guns willy-nilly at people? Is the guy watching really watching?

    How's my adrenaline doing? Manageable, or the shakes setting in? Am I able to focus?

    I'm a witness until they start searching (emptying pockets for people), shoot someone, or start herding people to a back room.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  5. #5
    Member Array jimtem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Be a good witness
    So you are going with the likelihood of number 2, the gunman will probably just rob and leave. I agree that this may be the only good decision.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Of course this all depends on where I am at when they start, and where they move around to.

    Do they look like they know what they are doing, or just pointing guns willy-nilly at people? Is the guy watching really watching?

    How's my adrenaline doing? Manageable, or the shakes setting in? Am I able to focus?

    I'm a witness until they start searching (emptying pockets for people), shoot someone, or start herding people to a back room.
    +1 Best way to go IMO.

  7. #7
    Member Array pir8te's Avatar
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    witness
    but keep keep an eye on the sheep
    as one could be the 3rd BG
    or a sheepdog
    that you might be able to help play tag a BG with
    Steve

    Life member

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array jhh3rd's Avatar
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    Feign or probably have a heart attack. Fall to ground and thrash like a fish out of water. Probably urinate too.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array RebelRabbi's Avatar
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    Shoot when lose of life or discovery of your weapon is imminent. When the SHTF in this scenario a LOT of lead will be flying. You will have only momentary momentum which will quickly shift back to the BG's favor. A man hit COM can still fight if he is determined.

  10. #10
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    First I'm going to be a good witness, but last is being a target. Somewhere in between action might be called for...whatever happens, happens...I want to go home alive.

    One has to control the adrenaline flow as well as possible...it is going to flow.
    The situation is not a good one when two armed individuals get the drop on a crowd. The good thing is the crowd, lots of people with tables, pillars, desks, and walls can be your friend...think about putting something between you and the guns, if possible.

    Remember, when/if you start shooting, the cops will not know who YOU are when they arrive...be very careful. The 'almost' last thing I want to do is draw my weapon...the last thing is die, so when 'push comes to shove'...I'll do what I have to do, successfully I hope, because of alertness.

    The best thing I have going for me is being alert. Most sheep in the bank won't even know what's happening until it's too late. I watch everyone entering the bank...everyone. My eyes and senses are always on alert. I look for exit plans and realistically think about the possibilities each and every time I enter my bank or any other store...but that's just me.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  11. #11
    New Member Array sillyrabbit's Avatar
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    Here's the scenario;

    You are in a business and 2 gunmen enter.

    I've been caught off guard? Not likely, but possible

    They are robbing at gunpoint.

    That means 'most probably' they will or could possibly discover I'm carrying.... so... I'm deemed a threat either way

    They are a dozen feet apart. Both are armed and the 1st is collecting cash, jewelry etc while the 2nd is covering the 1st and scanning the dozen or so patrons of the business.

    If the first is carrying a bag? collecting cash cash and jewelery.... he's not paying attention to what's around him, so I direct my 'primary' attention to the second guy.

    There is no chance you could even discretely dial 911 from your cell.

    Understood

    But you could draw and get a shot to the body of one of the gunmen easily.

    Your scenario says I can get a shot off... and the Law in my state says I CAN shoot if apparent deadly consequences or serious bodily injury are imminent to myself or others (my paraphrasing). Therefore I WOULD draw (when I best could, considering cover, bystanders, back drop and locations of the BG's) and double tap the second guy (hopefully he would be the one easiest hit) One shot to COM and one to the head and immediately cover the other guy demanding he drop his weapon! Should their be any aggressive movement on his behalf I would regrettably be compelled do the same thing to him as the first....

    Here is my problem with this scenario:

    1) I could probably shoot 1 but I or the people around me would get shot before I could return fire to the other gunman. There would be innocent casualties.

    Are you sure? 4 shots (aimed) in 1.5-2 seconds is absolutely doable even under stress for any of us even semi-practiced (we are atleast semi-practiced right? or we wouldn't be carrying right?) and when the covering shooter is hit (my first target), the bag man has to recognize what happened, decide his action after hearing my command, react and either move/shoot or stop, all in less than one (1) second. He would be down (shot) by then (under your scenario) and my statement of 4 shots in less than 2 seconds, which means (should I not want to warn the 'bagman' to drop his gun; it would be double tap first guy (1 second) and 1 second to do same to bag man. I AM not Rambo and NOT the a professional, but I do train and know I can do this easily (the time part) and accurately (practice)

    2) The gunmen might just rob and leave, harming no one.

    True, but he's collecting cash and Jewelry, meaning I will have to reach for my wallet and move on of my weapons to get it..... so........ not good! could I do it without him seeing my gun and let him leave? MAYBE! but not likely!

    3) The gunmen might shot innocent patrons regardless of resistance.

    That's the problem........ they (BG's) came into the business with gun drawn, for me to wait to see what happens? That, is exactly what causes innocent people to die unnecessarily.

    The BG's are counting on NO ONE doing anything! that's the idea of coming in with guns drawn, to intimidate and threaten and cause "the sheep" to freeze and acquiesce. Then, they can do what they want.....!!! including shooting any and all if they wish. Will they? I don't know! But I for one.... will not give them the chance IF I have a chance to do anything about it!

    Something similar happened to me some years ago, and also to my daughter, so been there!
    Just me!

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    If BG #2 is collecting wallets/cash/jewelry his hands are full and he isn't holding a weapon,I'm shooting BG#1,before BG#2 can react he's getting double tapped
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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  13. #13
    Member Array CarGunGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimtem View Post
    Heres the scenario. You are in a business and 2 gunmen enter. They are robbing at gunpoint. They are a dozen feet apart. Both are armed and the 1st is collecting cash, jewelry etc while the 2nd is covering the 1st and scanning the dozen or so patrons of the business. There is no chance you could even discretely dial 911 from your cell. But you could draw and get a shot to the body of one of the gunmen easily.

    Here is my problem with this scenario:

    1) I could probably shoot 1 but I or the people around me would get shot before I could return fire to the other gunman. There would be innocent casualties.

    2) The gunmen might just rob and leave, harming no one.

    3) The gunmen might shot innocent patrons regardless of resistance.

    What would you do?

    These kinds of posts disturb me. CHL/CCW doesn't mean law enforcement.

    I'd probably do what I was told and only pull my gun if I thought I was in danger. I am not going to be a hero. As sad as it is to see innocents being targeted or killed by a BG, my life and my family's life is still more important especially when you consider all the could go wrong and the legal implications of that.

  14. #14
    Member Array GHFLRLTD's Avatar
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    Florida Rules

    1. I am in a place where I have a legal right to be.
    2. I would be meeting force with equal (deadly) force.
    3. To stop an immediate forceable felony.

    Tactically, I would take out Robber 2 as soon as practical, then begin firing at Robber 1.


    As soon as the situation after firing commences allows, I would get 911 on the line.

    My goal would be to take charge of the situation as it related to me. I am not trying to be a hero, just make the most decisive and quickest moves I can make to make myself as safe as possible. I can not assume that the robber(s) will take the money and just run...
    George H. Foster
    Orlando, Florida

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    First scenario, assuming they don't notice me.

    If they are disguised the chances they will eliminate all witnesses is low. So I would not draw.

    If they are not disguised the chances of them shooting witnesses is much greater. So I would draw and double tap the guard, then double tap the collector. Then keep shooting at the highest perceived threat until they are stopped or I am.


    Second scenario, if they can see me well.

    If they are disguised the chances they will eliminate all witnesses is low. So I would not draw.

    If they are not disguised the chances of them shooting witnesses is much greater. So I would not try to draw on them unless I was sure they were going to shoot or started shooting, or if they took their eyes of me long enough for me to be pretty sure I could have a good chance of success.

    Bobo
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
    ~John Adams

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