If knocked down, keep feet toward attacker

This is a discussion on If knocked down, keep feet toward attacker within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mercop The fall itself is most peoples undoing. That is why we train to fall, fight off the ground, or fight on ...

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Thread: If knocked down, keep feet toward attacker

  1. #16
    Member Array LethalStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    The fall itself is most peoples undoing. That is why we train to fall, fight off the ground, or fight on the ground and continue.- George
    Exactly. Most fights end up on the ground and this is where most people are unskilled.
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If you are living your life worried about being a victim all the time and not enjoying life to the fullest, you are already a victim...
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  3. #17
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    There's a limit to what can be accomplished with "positive thoughts."
    And I'm not talking about self-fulfilling prophesy. I'm talking about the reality of old bones.
    I wouldn't classify the power of mindset as Stuart Smalley type positive thinking, but yeah, there are things mindset can't overcome. But then again, people have survived things through sheer determination to survive that nobody believed possible.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    FWIW, we practice ground fighting. I practice kicking one foot toward the attacker while using the other to help "steer." I practice bucking someone off.
    I practice guarding my face and deflecting blows and then bucking them off.
    This is exactly what's in the syllabus of our women's SD classes, Hopyard. And for good reason.
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  5. #19
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    Bunny, good for you and +1 for your SD instructor

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    This is exactly what's in the syllabus of our women's SD classes, Hopyard. And for good reason.
    Bunny, good for you and +1 for your SD instructor.

    I hope no one misinterpreted my comment about my need as an older person to avoid a fall or being thrown, and everyone's need to learn some ground fighting because that is where it is likely to end up.

    There is a reason our law enhances the penalty for assault on senior citizens. And, disparity of force issues shift in my favor toward use of lethal force because as I stated, old bones are old bones, and force that would not be lethal to a 20 year old would almost certainly be lethal to someone perhaps a few years older than myself. There is a very high percentage of folks who die within the first year of breaking a hip.

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    When I was 60 I hunted big game in the mountains, and was able to quarter and carry downed game to camp on a packboard if I did not have any help.
    But at 64 I had bypass surgery, and 4 years later learned that I have three blocked arteries that cannot be cleared.

    Now with subequent health problems and a little arthritis in my hip I absolutely cannot fight except for a matter of seconds. I go to the gym 3 days per week, and look in better shape than my inner body really is.

    So you young folks who think it is all a mindset, and that everyone needs karate or other type hand to hand fighting skills, have a lot to learn about the elderly. Don't worry, you will learn it all too soon.

    Comments such as the reply to Hopyard
    "If that is one's mindset, it will likely be true." indicate that one has no clue as to the inability of the elderly to defend ourselves against young and stronger attackers, and the liklihood of serious injury just by falling.
    We're not entirely helpless, but to take courses that are about hand to hand combat, knife fighting, and such things is not a good option for many of us.

    I do think that a mindset that says "I will probably get shot or hurt, and I am going to keep fighting until I die or pass out." is useful. I have read of some people getting shot by a small gun and not in a critical area, and just passing out. I do not assume I am not going to be able to carry through on what I get involved in, and intend to carry on until I am dead.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  7. #21
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    "If that is one's mindset, it will likely be true."
    That is my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    I do think that a mindset that says "I will probably get shot or hurt, and I am going to keep fighting until I die or pass out." is useful.
    What you say above is a much better expression of what I meant to say. I think there is a big difference between "If I am knocked down I am probably done for" and "I'll probably get hurt, but I'm going to keep fighting until I die or pass out."

    I certainly wasn't trying to discount the affects of age--something I'm learning first hand myself.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    That is my statement.



    What you say above is a much better expression of what I meant to say. I think there is a big difference between "If I am knocked down I am probably done for" and "I'll probably get hurt, but I'm going to keep fighting until I die or pass out."

    I certainly wasn't trying to discount the affects of age--something I'm learning first hand myself.
    I am sure that Hopyard did not mean that if knocked down he would just cower there, but realistically many of us could not fight long or on the ground. A fall could very well result in broken bones.

    I would not consider it a defeatist mindset to say that if a Mike Tyson thug would grab me I would be done for. I would not stop resisting, but I would have no chance of coming out of that well.

    If I went to the ground I would be finished also, but that doesn't mean I would just lay there while under attack.

    It is better if we, at any age, recognize our realistic limitations and strengths. Many young men have a very inflated idea of their invincibility in a fight. That is OK, but it may very well result in some big, and maybe fatal, surprises. Karate, for example, is a plus, but if you think one of your karate punches will put a guy out of commission take a look at the UFC.

    Probably, threads such as this one should be ignored by some of us, and let the youth "duke it out."
    I have not been in a fight since high school. I had two, and both opponents were larger and stronger than me, but both damaged their thumbs on my head and had to quit. But that is the school of hard knocks I much prefer to avoid, both for heads and thumbs.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    Probably, threads such as this one should be ignored by some of us, and let the youth "duke it out."
    I guess I'm not sure what you point is. Are you saying that if you're knocked down by an attacker that one should not try to keep their feet between them an the attacker? Or that it will be very difficult to do if you are an older person and not worth thinking about? I'm not sure how the suggestion to keep feet between ourselves an the attacker when knocked down turned into an age issue.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    I guess I'm not sure what you point is. Are you saying that if you're knocked down by an attacker that one should not try to keep their feet between them an the attacker? Or that it will be very difficult to do if you are an older person and not worth thinking about? I'm not sure how the suggestion to keep feet between ourselves an the attacker when knocked down turned into an age issue.
    Some things are just common sense, and if a person who has lived over 20 years does not know them I wonder what planet he came from. When I was a kid and we played or fought it was a natural thing to do to keep your feet toward the opponent. I don't need instructions to do that. But it may not always be possible.

    I have a good friend who is a firearms instructor, and is about 70. He recently took a course about moving and shooting. Sure that is a good idea, but he was showing a class how to do it, and fell on a rock with the result of having to limp for a couple of weeks. If it had been a real gun fight he would have been dead.

    I guess I am thinking about such things that sometimes are posted involving hand -to-hand or knife combat and maybe some of the run and dodge while you are shooting at multiple attackers stuff.
    I confess that I think that it might be enjoyable to play such games, but not of much use to 99+% of us.

    I am not going to get into hand to hand combat. If I were suddenly grabbed by one or more young BG I would have little chance.
    Somehow I have lived my life without problems of being attacked, and really believe that there is no one out there looking for me. I still think my brain and some degree of wisdom is my best defense.

    I don't need to prove I am not tough. I learned that decades ago. I am convinced that some of the problems some post here are a result of wanting to show that "I don't take nothing from nobody."

    I don't sit with my back to the wall and make sure my gun hand is always free, or some other things that are often brought up.
    Those are the type of things that I probably should ignore, along with things that I consider paranoid.

    I go where I need to go whether I can carry or not.

    I think we have a herd mentality on these forums since we do have common interests.
    Sometimes I just want to show that not everyone goes along with the "conventional wisdom" of the forum.

    I do take some heat, but that goes with the territory.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    Some things are just common sense, and if a person who has lived over 20 years does not know them I wonder what planet he came from.
    Well, I don't want to be master of the obvious. I apologize for making the original post.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    Well, I don't want to be master of the obvious. I apologize for making the original post.
    No apology necessary. Some had some comments that showed interest.
    Be honest, you aren't from Mars are you?
    Maybe I am one and don't realize it??

    Regards,
    Jerry

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Im getting older also but my thought is:
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    I always kept that cartoon on my office wall. It got me through some pretty rough spots.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeachBum View Post
    One thing bothers me about that video; cop seemed to have no concern whatsoever for the health of the victim.
    The LEO didn't see the start of the fight. From our perspective it was clear who the victim and aggressor were. It was less clear from their perspective.

    We did see the LEO take command of the scene and gain control of all persons.

    I am sure he radioed for an ambulance as soon as it was safe to do so...
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    a good kick and taking out their knee, will put them on the ground with you.
    Yes that is very true... size doesn't matter if you hit them at the knees they will fall
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