Brutal murder on video--what would you do differently? - Page 2

Brutal murder on video--what would you do differently?

This is a discussion on Brutal murder on video--what would you do differently? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Self awareness was no where to be found on this one. But after the first guy was hit my gun would have been out (assuming ...

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Thread: Brutal murder on video--what would you do differently?

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Sep 2009
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    Self awareness was no where to be found on this one. But after the first guy was hit my gun would have been out (assuming that I was the second guy). If I was the first guy that got hit I would have pulled it (it being my gun or knife whatever was more easy to reach for) out...
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor

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  2. #17
    Member Array SnubMan's Avatar
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    Mar 2008
    The three BG's looked normal... another example of how you cant let anyone get close to you. Better SA would have helped. Pretty awful outcome -- hope they go to jail.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Guy facing should have mentioned someone was coming up from behind, but most know, unless your trained in this Military, Cop, MA/SD or just being taught for S&Gs, most people won't have a clue what to do or what to look for in these situations, the 2nd guy could have looked out for his buddy a little more by grabbing something and just start swinging it at them like a dang Mother Bear protecting her young, go crazy and those punks would have left.

    I take it that kid died and if so. That was senseless well my view is no mercy.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    They were sheeple, basically. This is exactly what happens when society beats the idea of self-defense out of their citizens. Have you ever read the press releases from the Home Office? "If you're attacked, just BOHICA and wait for the professionals to arrive to take care of it."

    "So what happens if just sitting there, as per your instructions, gets me stabbed in the heart, sirs of great import and public safety consciousness?"

    "Well, we'll have a suitable accompaniment of officers look down at your body and shake their heads while saying, "Blood shame, this" in the way that only British Officers of the Law can manage. More than adequate considering the circumstances and the fact that you're a mere subject."

  6. #20
    Member Array CommonMan101's Avatar
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    May 2009
    Yeah, Situational Awareness has to rank 1st here.

    This was in the UK.

    Secondly, can we give a big applause to gun control and knife control in the UK not only assuring the (good) kid was dis-armed but that he would be in trouble with the law even if he did defend himself successfully?

    I'm sure he thought he was safe from such an attack since laws were in place preventing any dangerous weapons from being available.

  7. #21
    Member Array schwaa's Avatar
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    Apr 2009
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    I would have loved for this video to end with a CCW permit holder correcting the situation. The guy in the green got away quick, theres nothing he could have done. The camera was watching them for some reason unknown to us. They may have done something earlier in the video that we have not seen. The camera guy knew the 3 were suspicious, but where are the cops? No where to be found and now someone is dead.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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  8. #22
    Member Array bruce21b's Avatar
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    Apr 2008
    Lexington Ky
    how in the heck did the murderer get a "shank" in GB???? Hell, over there you even have to register butter-knives and the plastic sporks you get at taco-bell....

    i think in that EXACT situation, sit. awareness would have been key to surviving....the kid in the green should have alerted his friend to approaching people......

    the "sucker punch" was what allowed the thug to murder the like the above poster, i would have so LOVED for a CCW holder to have ended that murder attempt before the shank was used...

    but what am i dreaming about??? that is Great Britain....thank GOD ALMIGHTY i live in KENTUCKY

  9. #23
    Member Array fatblakcat's Avatar
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    Dec 2009
    GOD all mighty fella's excuse the french but video's, situations like this just piss me off. first off I don't mean to come off like rambo... but if that were me as the second by stander who wasn't stabbed, and since i carry practically everywhere even sometimes depending the situations (places most shouldn't or don't carry) I would have drew my weapon and yell stop if the first punk hit my friend he would have died on the spot and the second and third if smart would have fled. then i would have made sure my friend was okay and call the ambulance for the 1st punk and my friend. Now i know this sounds like a joke but if you were to ask my fiance how bad i am about being over cautious she would tell you really Bad!!! like today we went to a pawn shop to look at guns and it was packed inside so with waiting about 5 minutes i grew tired of the line and began to walk back to the driver side of the car as my fiance approached the passenger side. out of my peripheral i saw and could her a male about mid to late 20's coming up on us fast i slowed down while unlocking the car for her and took a defensive stance while not being threatening to the guy and i had my had on my gun inside my coat and my left hand on my knife. call that too gung ho i call that plan out prepared had the man ran or stepped offensively toward me or threatened in a manor where he seemed to have wanted in my car or something i would have drew either my weapon or my knife. when the gentle man moved on pass us i noticed he was carrying some sort of shinny matelic material in his dominate hand. I can only imagine how that may have gone down if he were some sort of real threat.
    I say all of this because it is only right to have situational awareness at all time even when at the bar hanging with the fella's. because to me an aware mind is a prepared mind.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array rljohns's Avatar
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    Jun 2007
    This reminds me of a similar situation here in Colorado were the attacker was armed only with a tire iron I believe. The guy was hit and down (dazed, confused) but had enough presence of mind to draw his weapon and shoot the guy with the tire iron and the guys girlfriend. Both the gf and the attacker were closing in after the first strike. It all started after the attacked guy accidentally bumped the guys car with his door.

    No charges were filed!! The attacker would have killed him and the gf was helping attack. A firearm is not considered the only type of lethal force.

  11. #25
    Member Array bruce21b's Avatar
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    Lexington Ky
    Quote Originally Posted by rljohns View Post
    A firearm is not considered the only type of lethal force.
    +1000...a firearm, is by far, not the only type of "lethal weapon"......

    you could almost say that a tire-iron, bat, club, 2X4 and esepcially a knife can/are more lethal than a gun because they never run out of ammo and a hit from any of the above can cause more damage than a bullet...depending on where hit, of course.....

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Teenager jailed for life for 'senseless murder' | Mail Online

    Michael Lynch, 17, was jailed for life today and told he must serve a minimum of 15 years for the murder of student Daniel Pollen and an attack on his friend in Romford, Essex, in July last year.

    A court heard how the peaceful students never stood a chance in the unprovoked violent attack, which was caught on CCTV.

    Video: The shocking scene as a young man is murdered

    Daniel Pollen, 20, lived only seconds after his jaw was first shattered after a punch and then a knife driven into his heart. Although the wound was less than two inches deep, it caused massive bleeding and made his death "inevitable", London's Woolwich Crown Court heard.

    By the time the young men's three attackers had driven off, the second year Southampton University medical student was almost certainly dead.

    His friend Andrew Griffiths, who had been celebrating his 20th birthday, also lay in a pool of blood - his jaw shattered as well.

    "The murder of Daniel Pollen and the related attack on his best friend Andrew Griffiths formed a sustained and co-ordinated piece of violence that was as brutal as it appears to have been senseless", prosecutor Christopher Kinch QC told the court.

    "We are no nearer any clear explanation for the unleashing of that gratuitous violence on two entirely innocent young men.

    "At the end of it Daniel Pollen had been mortally wounded, the knife had gone into his chest and pierced his heart, his friend Andrew Griffiths lay beaten with a broken jaw and wounded with the same knife."

    Among those in the dock was 17-year-old Michael Lynch of Stratford, east London, who was just 16 when he launched the frenzied late night knifing in Romford's Brewery Shopping Centre car park on July 8 last year.

    Lynch, who was on bail for burglary at the time, pleaded guilty earlier this year to murdering Mr Pollen and wounding his other victim with intent. Alongside him were Timmy Sullivan, 19, from Barking, Essex and Michael Onokah, 25, of Ilford, East London, who were convicted of wounding Mr Griffiths with intent and causing grievous bodily harm to their other victim at a trial last month were cleared of murder.

    Following representations from the press, Judge Shirley Anwyl QC agreed an order protecting Lynch's identity should be lifted because of the seriousness of his crimes.

    As the crop-haired defendants sat in the dock, surrounded by nine prison officers, Mr Kinch detailed the countdown to Mr Pollen's "chilling" and unprovoked murder.

    Mr Kinch told the court that the two victims had spent the evening at the Time And Envy nightclub in Romford with several friends.

    Although the three defendants had also been in the nightclub at the time, Mr Kinch said there was no evidence of any confrontation between the two groups.

    Mr Griffiths and his friends left at around 2am with most of the group setting off to catch taxis home while he and Mr Pollen went to the car park to await a lift from the Southampton student's sister Kirsty.


    By coincidence, two CCTV operators were watching the scene outside the club where crowds were milling around as police dealt with an unrelated incident and noticed the three defendants pulling at a street sign and decided to focus on them.

    "That is the reason why we have so much clear and chilling footage of the events that followed," Mr Kinch said.

    The cameras were filming as the trio set off through a passageway towards the car park. Seconds later they spotted the two students and launched what was to be a fatal attack. Mr Kinch said: "They were seen chatting together plainly in good humour...and the Crown's case has always been that the events that followed were far too rapid and co-ordinated for there not to have been some communication in those seconds."

    Sullivan was seen approaching the pair and lunging at Mr Griffiths, shattering his jaw with a punch.

    "Daniel Pollen instinctively reached out but could do nothing to protect his friend as he slumped to the floor," the barrister said. As Sullivan sauntered away, the other two began "circling" Mr Pollen in a predatory fashion.

    As Onokah punched him, breaking the young man's jaw, Lynch was seen reaching into his pocket, almost certainly to pull out his knife. The student could be seen with his arms outspread in "a gesture entirely peaceful and non-aggressive".

    Seconds later, Lynch delivered the fatal blow. "Mr Pollen was seen holding his chest with his right hand. At that stage, he could not have known it but the knife having pierced his heart, he had but seconds to live," he told the court.

    Griffiths was also stabbed moments later. The CCTV showed Lynch lunging four times at him although two thrusts failed to penetrate. "Fortunately for him, he was falling away and collapsing to the ground as the last of those thrusts were being delivered," Mr Kinch said. The three were then seen making off in a car. The entire incident took no more than 40 seconds, with the actual violence taking just half of that. The court was told that the CCTV images helped police quickly identify those responsible and track them to Lynch's home.

    But as the officers burst in through the front door they fled through the back. Although the two older defendants were soon arrested, the teenage murderer got away and remained on the run for three days.

    Mr Kinch said that the youngster had a string of previous convictions dating back to when he was just 14. In the first he shot an Asian man in the leg with a ball bearing gun and racially abused him.
    His friend?
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

  13. #27
    Member Array David in MI's Avatar
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    Mar 2009
    Wow, and he will be out on the streets in 15 years....or a little less. That is precisely the sort of injustice that creates unrest in a populace.

  14. #28
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    The backstory is interesting to know. Thanks for posting. But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that for us, the value comes from getting an understanding of how these kinds of attacks happen, how we can identify and avoid them, and how (in the worst case) to maximize our chances of winning if the fight is on. The backstory, and the result (did the person die, etc) don't really matter.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    I think the scariest thing about this story is realizing I may one day be attacked by and have to fight/stop/kill a teenager. Terrifying.
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

  16. #30
    Member Array adroitus's Avatar
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    Nov 2005
    Willamette Valley
    Wow, those bobbies are master tacticians.

    But as the officers burst in through the front door they fled through the back. Although the two older defendants were soon arrested, the teenage murderer got away and remained on the run for three days

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