VERY interesting read. Makes you think a lot about reaction times.
This is a discussion on Twenty one feet is way too close! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Found this article TWENTY ONE FEET IS WAY TO CLOSE! that I think is worth the read. definitely has me rethinking the 21 foot rule. ...
Found this article TWENTY ONE FEET IS WAY TO CLOSE! that I think is worth the read. definitely has me rethinking the 21 foot rule.Originally Posted by Frank Borelli
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution
Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family
Yes, I agree, 21 feet is way too close. I realize this at almost every steel challenge match I've been to. The USPSA minimum distance from shooter to target is 21 feet. I have questioned and even measured some stage set-ups. I've also recently read some statistics for law enforcement. More than 75 percent of officers killed in the line of duty are within 10 feet of their attackers.
Nice find on the article. Good read.
We were doing timed draw from concealed OWB holster and shoot at 10 yd targets on Sunday,my best first shots were a little over 2 seconds,my range partners best was a little over 1.5 seconds
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
try it with mock weapons. my son and i did he got to me twice before i could clear leather and i knew he was coming
Hey Y'all: All of your responses have been very informative and well-worth reading, however I do have a sort of question/statement. If I am out and about and am aware of my surroundings as we all should be, I have doubts that my first inclination of an attack (not the actual presentation of a weapon but just that "feeling") would come at greater than the magic 21 feet in this thread's titile. I would, at a much further distance, already have my hand on my firearm still CC but almost out and about and, in a darkened situation with more of a "feeling", perhaps at my side. I assume the 21 feet is just that distance where obvious open bodily harm is about to intrude on you---my comments would extend your belief at least another 10 or 20 feet and make the situation more in your favor. Just commenting
The problem is that this stuff is usually taught as a gun problem or a knife problem. It is a fighting problem. Research shows and and force on force in MCS classes confirms that most people don't even see the edged weapon. To defend against a specific tool you need to identify it as that tool. That requires the being able to identify and respond to the preparatory movements instead of the execution movements as most train.
And who carries on a conversation at 7 yards? Not me.
I think a bigger threat is someone charging you with and improvised impact weapon from that distance than an edged weapon. The worst thing you can do even if you think you have time is draw and go two hands on the gun. Once you do you form and "arrow" forward and we have found that people just stand still at that point.- George
If a determined BG comes at you within 10 yards, you are most likely going to have a physical encounter unless you know how to move and shoot (plus can see it coming). Learn how to defend yourself up close and personal plus MOVE! Most issues are at BAD BREATH range.
"Being PARANOID is just plain smart thinking when they are really out to get you!"
Yes, 21 feet is too close. In Tueller drills we have done, some of the participants don't even get a shot off, and thats with them knowing ahead of time that it is coming.
If an armed guy with a knife starts running at you, you will need to notice the instant he begins, or you will not have time to draw and fire before he is on you.
Owner, Bear River Holsters.
The thing that I find most interesting about the standard Tueller drill is that the Officer doing the shooting KNOWS that the guy has a knife and IS going to attack him on the instructors "go".
We as citizens do NOT have this luxury!
If someone is walking toward you on a street, and plans on attacking you, even if he starts his attack before the 21 foot distance, you are going to;
(my best guess of time required in parenthesis)
1. Notice that he is starting to run toward you. (.25 sec)
2. question yourself as to why he is doing this (.25 sec)
3. See that he has a knife (.25 sec)
4. Decide to take action (.25 sec.)
Now that you have decided you need to take action you have one second OR LESS to draw and fire.
Very informative and thought provoking thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I don't consider anyone closer than 15 Yards to not be a threat if they are armed with a knife. In fact I still consider you a threat at that 15 Yard mark, I'm just a hair more comfortable. The problem is, most of our business with other people is a lot closer than 15 Yards.
measure 21 feet and start paying more attention when you are walking around in public...there are potential threats inside of that area quite a bit....
This is _exactly_ the point I was making in my thread from several months ago as related to a Tueller Drill run as a stage at an IDPA event.
See the following thread link which includes video of that stage as from the shooters perception of view...
September 16th, 2009, 11:23 AM
Twenty One Foot is _too close_ a distance and small a box, for comfort.
At _best_ and narrowest of chance for survival 21' is minimal.
What submariners know as 'maximum operating depth'.
Get inside of that as being less than M.O.D. and you begin to enter the red zone where there is high potential for your box to _collapse_ around you.
Also known as 'crush depth'.
Not absolutely guaranteed but by calculation of odds are extremely high potential for an irreversible catastrophic failure.
Dennis Tueller did not advocate that 21' (twenty one feet) start/engagement distance is what is safe.
That is a very common misunderstanding and misinterpretation or even misrepresentation.
What he did advocate is that 21' is too close for most any functional degree of comfort. Maximum operating depth.
This article does nothing but reinforce what Dennis Tueller stated as per his famous 'Tueller Drill'.
There is no debunking done here. Just re-proofing of what has long been a known as even before Tueller published his own same study and findings.
"We have done some testing along those lines recently and have found that an average healthy adult male can cover the traditional seven yard distance in a time of (you guessed it) about one and one-half seconds. It would be safe to say then that an armed attacker at 21 feet is well within your Danger Zone." - Dennis Tueller, 'How Close Is Too Close', March 1983 issue of SWAT magazine
The Police Policy Studies Council
It should be noted that the Tueller Drill as studied specifically involved and required that the GG/victim/cop be in a static position, while the BG/aggresor be moving.
A worst case scenario as though ones back were literally against a wall, effectively unable to move and _gain_ distance and by that time (!).
Time to react, escape/flee or even completely remove ourselves from the former point of danger. Red zone.
This is why it's important to _not_ just train at a range as on a line shooting at moving targets and think okay now I'm 'high speed'. You are not.
You yourself need to learn and practice moving, too! Knowing when and _how_ to run (a whole lot of people can't run 10 steps without tripping on their own feet...seriously) as well as _where_ to move as in direction with relation to that of the threat.
Further how to move and run as while at the same time firing your weapon and being functional to score coarse combat hits.
Very important and key for police and other professionals.
Same for those of us who are civilians, even as we walk along main Street on what was intended to be a simple milk or beer run.
Which comes back to how in many threads past persons in this discussion including specifically Mercop and BikerRN as well as myself too have stated that it is not good enough to just be 'handy' enough with a handgun to hit a pumpkin on a fence post at 21' or less.
Other very vital to your survival skills and abilities are required and this includes being able to quite simply detect distance and movement as per being aware of your surroundings and those as within your 'bubble'.
Equally important is ones own fitness so as to be able to move their bulk and _gain_ distance which directly equates to time.
As noted in this threads analysis and my own prior, time is a matter of life/survival or death.
A few days ago there was a thread in a different area posted by a guy who commented his New Year resolution was to lose weight so as to be better able to carry more comfortably a handgun. I disagree with that sentiment and view.
Lose weight and by that increases ones fitness and thus _odds_ so as to be better able to gain distance and time should you be run up on and your bubble of space, distance and time begin to collapse as to and hopefully not beyond crush depth.
Cop (female) Attacked (by visibly large male during a 'routine' traffic stop)
"Keeping a safe distance gives you precious seconds to avoid instances like this one..."
thats whats been missing in here...a well thought out and long winded post by Janq...howve you been?...good holidays?..