Robbed at gunpoint scenario: When do you/can you fire?
This is a discussion on Robbed at gunpoint scenario: When do you/can you fire? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; tpurdin...your point is well taken and certainly you speak from experience. I enjoy these scenarios as they cause me to think about reactions and legalities ...
January 26th, 2010 04:57 PM
tpurdin...your point is well taken and certainly you speak from experience. I enjoy these scenarios as they cause me to think about reactions and legalities right now. This may (or may not as you suggest) be the way it actually goes down. Reaction can and does change on the fly. As you pointed out, certain variables change everything. Hopefully it will stop me from hesitating if a similar situation should occur. Hesitation has gotten plenty of people hurt/killed before. Knowledge is power...just understanding the limitations of discussing these armchair defensive scenarios is a good rule to remember.
January 26th, 2010 04:57 PM
January 26th, 2010 05:09 PM
In case anyone was curious about the Texas shooter referenced in Janq's JAM article: "On June 30, 2008 a Harris County grand jury cleared Mr. Horn by issuing a no-bill after two weeks of testimony"
"How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of." -Suzanna Gratia Hupp
January 26th, 2010 05:25 PM
definatly shoot, if his partner shows a weapon then he gets it too
tough call, cant explain that you wer in danger when he has a bullet in his back, a disarm shot will only get you sued, best case scenario is you lost your wallet and keep your life
and as long as your throwing around scenario's, I have an old wallet with an expired driver licence, old credit card, a few pictures and about $38 that I carry with me, thats what the rober will get, all I loose is $38 and some old crap that almost got thrown away
Timid people sleep peacefully at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
January 26th, 2010 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Queensidecas
Which was not without a _lot_ of controversy as even among Texans.
Had the Horn case occurred exactly same condition as in pretty much any other state he would be in prison right now.
A perfect example of how state and local laws are a must to know and consider as related to these type If then what how type scenario threads.
Locality and knowledge of statutes are key, as along with J.A.M./A.O.I.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
January 26th, 2010 05:51 PM
I've been approached by menacing looking guys before (without a gun) and one of them said something like "Hey man, I really need $20 and I want you to give it to me." I told them the truth that I didn't even have $5 and needed that then I walked away before they could argue and ignored their comments which I didn't hear well anyway.
If they had exposed but haven't brandished (drawn) a weapon I believe the law here in CA would still look on it as panhandling. Is there such a thing as armed panhandling?
January 26th, 2010 08:03 PM
A: Gun comes out immediately while side stepping "Off the X" trying to put known armed BG infront of the other while heading for as much cover as I can find. I am not a police officer I am not interested in detaining or arresting. I just want to go home. They will receive shots if they so much as step towards me. The only thing that will keep them alive is moving away from me while keeping hands visible.
B. Toss/Throw wallet towards them and back peddle watching for opening to draw. If they take wallet and split my life is no longer in danger, I do not feel obligated to shoot. If they continue with aggression watch for opportunity to create distraction/shoot. "trip and fall" to disguise draw, look off to one side and mutter OH "SHOOT"/"COPS"/"LOOK OUT" anything to increase your chances.
These are my thoughts to your situation. Personally I'm in a wheelchair, I don't get to run away/find cover. I will do my best to be aggressive enough fast enough to make sure I go home.
Both situations call cops asap.
To those that paid for my freedom,
I WILL NEVER FORGET.
As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.
January 26th, 2010 09:12 PM
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
January 26th, 2010 09:18 PM
Most laws say, "you feel your life in in immediate threat or danger". So, your answer is... at what point do you 'feel' your life is in immediate danger.
January 26th, 2010 10:19 PM
Sometimes you wish you could shoot the BG in the leg as he runs away so you can get your wallet back or at least to slow him down. From what I read I like the way Texas handles this part of the law. This portion of Texas law should be in all states. if the BG gets away with your wallet he would have your home address your ccw permit and possibility your gun and all your credit cards.
January 27th, 2010 04:32 AM
Working backwards through your situations:
When he's running he's no longer a lethal threat so SD defense is out. If you think you could get away with a Citizen's Arrest that may be an option, but I'm pretty sure you can't use a weapon to enforce the arrest. So, it's a dicey legal thing to attempt to begin with, and if you can't use your weapon you are asking to get shot when you try your arrest. LEAVE THE COPS DO THEIR JOB ONCE HE RUNS. YOU'RE THE VICTIM, NOT THE COP.
Second: a drawn gun is a real tough situation - you can hope for the best and give him the money - or try to outfox him so you can draw. Several ways come to mind: having a "heart attack" as you go for your wallet - at my age it would not be unheard of. I've heard that often faced with that and knowing they will be blamed if you die, some BGs hit the road, if not, you falling over and gasping may give you some leeway if BG is scared and off-guard for you to get your weapon out. There's also a good chance it won't work and you'll be shot, and you could be shot at the start of the act of the heart attack. So, this is very dicey.
One other, as you go for your wallet suddenly say something to someone behind and to side of BG - "Hey man stay away", something like that - only there is no one there. If said conversationally and without yelling it can well make someone else turn quickly to see what is going on and pull his gun out of position: if he does this and you believe it will allow it: make your move: draw and fire A LOT.
And third "trick" is to get wallet out and say "here you are" while tossing it to BG but off to the side - like it's a bad toss. Most people who suddenly see someone toss something break there attention to the object thrown and are momentarily confused as to whether to catch it or not. Make it sound sincere and helpful: like "I'm tossing it right to you so you've got it now". If his attention waivers and the gun goes out of position aimed towards you: possibly another opening for a draw and quick series of shots: again MANY shots, he's holding a gun.
Situation #1: If someone demands money of you on the street I believe it is legally a robbery and a violent crime and allows one to expect violence - throw in the gun shown and I think it will pass as an immediate threat. The law does not require someone to actually draw and shoots us first for us to prove SD. So, I would draw and either fire - or draw and scream "lie down, spread your arms immediately or I will shoot in defense of my life!" : real loud in hopes someone will hear those words. Then an immediate call thereafter to 911 with description of armed attacker held by you, CCW, for fear of your life - and that you need help fast! Describe yourself, what you're wearing, everything and stay on the phone. I'd do one of those two. If the BG tries to go for his gun and you've time, so it's recorded by 911 yell: "Stop I'll fire" and if he doesn't: shoot and a LOT. The 911 operator has the whole thing recorded. You tried everything to avoid shooting.
January 30th, 2010 05:42 PM
Thanks for all the advice. These are basically the types of things went through my mind. Thanks for reinforcing it for me, and Janq, thank you for those links.
I'm prety sure if the gun is drawn, I'm just going to hand my wallet over.. or maybe take my wallet out, remove the money and hope he accepts that without taking my ID's and credit cards.
I originally posted this after hearing about 3 seperate incidents of this scenario happening just off campus where I go to school. Since I live off campus, anytime I don't have to be on campus, my gun is with me.
Thanks again everyone.
January 30th, 2010 05:56 PM
In many states, including mine, the thief's actions in both scenarios A and B are the same crime: felony menacing.
If someone threatens me with a weapon in any fashion, the only assumption I will make is that he is about to kill me with it.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" Patrick Henry (ironically a slave owner), 1775 Mar 23.
January 30th, 2010 06:23 PM
In both cases, its considered ARMED robbery, since the perp did SHOW a gun. In Florida, armed robbery exists if someone says they have a gun without showing it. In Florida you are allowed to use "deadly force" if you life (or anothers) is in danger, for "preventing" a felony, aresting a felon, etc
However, the choie is yours.
Go for faking a heart attack. Double up, barf or pee in your pants if you can do it, fake you can't catch your breath. In Florida, if a death occurs DURING the commission of a crime (even if for medical reasons), the perp(s) are guilty of murder third, and will leave there post haste. Never mind the wallet, your aledged heart attack raised the antie.
While on the ground, draw and conceal the gun where they can't see it, so you are ready if they still try to remove your wallet and approach you.
They above was taught to a wealthy executive in NY city, where even a multi-millionaire can't get a permit.....
When I am out and about, and particularly on vacation, my wallet is in a locked car safe, my credit cards/ID, and CWP are in my sock and my cash is in a money clip in my pocket with a couple of 20s in it. So, given that, if there is no overt threat, I will give him the money clip and say, "Hey that all I got..."
January 30th, 2010 09:55 PM
The only trick is to draw without it being seen. As distinctive as the "draw" motion is, many felons will see it coming a mile away.
Originally Posted by mastercapt
Still, that's the basic technique I've been taught as well. It ain't much, but without decent H2H capabilities, it's about all you've got when being covered by an armed felon ready to take your life.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
January 30th, 2010 10:05 PM
A: Once he has made the threat and showed his weapon, he has committed assault. Do you feel as if your life is threatened, that he intends to cause serious harm or death? If so, shoot. He is armed and said he will shoot you.
B: Running away--don't shoot. The threat to life has passed, and use of deadly force probably (and most likely) will not hold up as a defense.
Based on FL laws on CC and use of deadly force.
Retired USAF E-8. Avatar is OldVet from days long gone - 1979. Oh, to be young again...
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
"For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield
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