Robbed at gunpoint scenario: When do you/can you fire?

Robbed at gunpoint scenario: When do you/can you fire?

This is a discussion on Robbed at gunpoint scenario: When do you/can you fire? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have two scenarios in mind. Scenario A: Two people approach you, one shows a gun but doesn't keep it on you, it's stuck in ...

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Thread: Robbed at gunpoint scenario: When do you/can you fire?

  1. #1
    New Member Array Matty's Avatar
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    Robbed at gunpoint scenario: When do you/can you fire?

    I have two scenarios in mind.

    Scenario A:
    Two people approach you, one shows a gun but doesn't keep it on you, it's stuck in his belt and he just shows you that he has one and demands your money. He hasn't drawn, he hasn't said "give me your money [I]or I'll kill you[I]". Can you draw and fire in that situation? Would you just draw and tell him to put his hands up? In that case if he darts for his gun, you can certainly fire. But what if the gun isn't pointed at you? The other guy appears to be unarmed, but you can't be sure.

    Scenario B:
    Same thing, but this time he draws and holds the gun on you while he asks for your money. I know in this situation, I would just give him my wallet. Most of us here have a built in "I will not be a victim" mechanism, and it sucks to be in a situation like that where you're technically helpless (unless you're a quick draw type.. I'm not.).
    My question on this scenario, is what do you do now that they're running away? Your life is no longer in any immediate danger, you're just standing there without your wallet, but still armed with a feeling that you should have been able to stop them.

    I'd appreciate any input/opinions.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty View Post
    Robbed at gunpoint scenario: When do you/can you fire?

    Scenario A: ... one shows a gun ...

    Scenario B: ... draws and holds the gun on you ...
    As soon as practicable. For their sakes, they'd best not turn their attention elsewhere. It's entirely likely I'll be hurt, and it's only going to work if I can catch him/them off-guard, but if the opportunity presents itself then I am going to take steps to eliminate the negotiation for my life.

    But in Scenario C, where they are running away from me, the statutes that cover my actions in my state will eviscerate me, legally speaking, if I touch them. Essentially, would I take down a fleeing felon? Almost certainly not.

    what do you do now that they're running away? Your life is no longer in any immediate danger, you're just standing there without your wallet, but still armed with a feeling that you should have been able to stop them.
    "No longer in immediate danger." Yet, you end up gunning down a couple of people anyway. That is, essentially, being judge, jury and executioner all in one fell swoop. All across the country, DA's are charging people for exactly this thing as a crime, and people are getting convicted. It's not viewed well.

    "Shoulda, woulda, coulda" should never apply to one's thinking, here, once the threat is gone. Unless you prefer to be hunted by the authorities.

    Why? For me, the legal risks of what is almost certain to come are simply too great, as of 2010 in Oregon. Sad to say, but the schmucks in legislative power in the past have made it a crime to be upstanding, in such situations. Same as most places. 'Nuff said, really.

    Now, taking down an escaping violent felon whom I have personally witnessed execute his horrors and who is almost certainly to do the same to another, such a person is "covered" by the statutes as a legitimate target. Still, I would absolutely NOT target such people as they were running away. The penalties for self-righteous, grandiose legal shenanigans by the DA are simply too stiff to do it, in Oregon in 2010.

    Though, should the statutes ever change to absolutely support upstanding people in such situations, then I might possibly consider doing so. It would depend on the situation and how imminent the threat to others. Still, I would not do so if it would only effect punishment against the felon, as opposed to protecting others who are imminently at serious risk.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    This seems like a gray area to me. Scenario A is a implied threat, scenario B is definately a threat. If they are leaving, I still think they would be a threat. After all they could turn and fire no?

  4. #4
    Member Array ZombieShoot's Avatar
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    Scenario A: As soon as he demands money go for your gun. Odds are he will then go for his. Hopefully you'll be faster and get the shot off.

    Scenario B: Depends on your skill level and their distance from you. A disarm attempt might work.

    Once they are running away? Do nothing but call the cops.

  5. #5
    Member Array Cycler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty View Post
    I have two scenarios in mind.

    Scenario A:
    Two people approach you, one shows a gun but doesn't keep it on you, it's stuck in his belt and he just shows you that he has one and demands your money. He hasn't drawn, he hasn't said "give me your money [I]or I'll kill you[I]". Can you draw and fire in that situation? Would you just draw and tell him to put his hands up? In that case if he darts for his gun, you can certainly fire. But what if the gun isn't pointed at you? The other guy appears to be unarmed, but you can't be sure.
    Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy.

    I think that scenario one has the first two for sure and the third is grey. I'd probably draw/move, then re-ascertain. I'd expect they'd both run at this point.

    Scenario B:
    Same thing, but this time he draws and holds the gun on you while he asks for your money. I know in this situation, I would just give him my wallet. Most of us here have a built in "I will not be a victim" mechanism, and it sucks to be in a situation like that where you're technically helpless (unless you're a quick draw type.. I'm not.).
    My question on this scenario, is what do you do now that they're running away? Your life is no longer in any immediate danger, you're just standing there without your wallet, but still armed with a feeling that you should have been able to stop them.

    I'd appreciate any input/opinions.
    I don't think you're helpless here. If someone is in bad breath distance and their firearm is within your reach and they're not planning on you resisting, it's not very difficult for an explosive move to catch them totally off guard.

    I carry at around 3:30/ 4:00. I think this is an advantage from an armed attacker in front of you because you can draw concealed. It's a liability if they come up from behind.

    In this case, assuming the attacker is right handed and within range, I'd draw my weapon feigning that I'm going for my wallet (he asked for my money remember) once I'm almost clear of the holster my left arm batts the attackers gun hand either left or right (depending on how he's standing) - move off the X, 3 or 4 in attacker one, 3 or 4 in attacker two, starting from the hip.

    I know it won't go down that way, but the more you think and the more you rehearse, the more options and the more natural it will come to you.

    I practice a bit with an airsoft in the basement from time to time.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    In Texas you could fire anytime you wanted,they have your wallet and it's property you may not be able to replace,plus your Drivers License has your address,as soon as you see a gun and feel threatened it's game on
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Member Array Orange Boy's Avatar
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    Scenario A:

    I'll assume I'm in Florida when this happens. The one that showed me the gun has made his intentions clear that he possesses a deadly weapon. I'm not interested at that point in relying on his good will that he will not use it on me. A reasonable person would assume he has bad intentions and will use the gun. I would immediately draw and order both to put their hands up, get to their knees first and then lay face down hands out while I call 911. I would not shoot anyone unless perp 1 went for his waistband or perp 2 made a move for a weapon. If they don't follow my orders, and just turn and run, I instantly change my position a bit and get down to a crouch stance and prepare for either to turn around and engage me. I will be ready to fire.

    Scenario B:

    You cannot outdraw an already drawn gun. I'm assuming they are in close to me. Since I'm not trained in close combat skills (like Krav Maga) where one could deflect the weapon and then draw, I'm going to give up my wallet. Don't forget he has a buddy as backup that can intercede if necessary. There is just too much that can go wrong in this scenario. I would hope my situational awareness would allow me to see these guys first and I would move away before they could confront me. I have been known to carry a dummy wallet too.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array hudsonvalley's Avatar
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    Option C....

    If gun is drawn, cry like a whimpering baby so they get confused and look to each other for guidance....then shoot 'em.....
    Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.
    ---Ronald Reagan

  9. #9
    Member Array NosaMSirhC's Avatar
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    I live in Virginia and I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. In some of the SD courses I have taken that were taught by lawyers here is how to sum it up in a nutshell.

    (A)bility - Does the bad guy/gal have the ability to do you harm? Are they bigger/stronger/faster/more of them than you?

    (O)pportunity - Does the bad guy/gal have the opportunity to do you harm? If they are standing on the other side of a 10 foot cyclone fence and tell you they are going to kick your *****, probably not.

    (J)urisprudence or (J)eopardy - Are you in immediate danger? If someone was screaming at you they are going to kill you and are waving a gun around I'd say that you are in immediate danger.

    (P)reclusion - According to a person I consider very knowledgable on this subject this is where most SD scenarios fall apart. This is looking at the whole scenario through the eyes of a camera or someone else. Did what the camera or someone else saw clearly indicate that your life was in imminent danger and you absolutely had no other choice but to use the level for force you did? When the threat was over did you stop using force?

    Here are the three things I take away from AOJP...

    1.The threat must be current, immediate, and unavoidable.
    2.Your level of force must be appropriate to the threat.
    3.Your use of force must stop when the threat ceases.

    Hope this helps the OP answer the 2 scenarios they posted about.

    Be Safe,

    NosaM
    "In a crisis, you will not rise to the occasion, but you will default to the level of your training."

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    A. The threat is implied by showing me the gun and his demanding my money. I won’t come out firing necessarily but my gun will come out and be pointed at them if I think I can get to it before he gets to his.

    B. Let them run, call the cops, let them do their job.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  11. #11
    Member Array tpurdin's Avatar
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    not trying to disrespect anyone here because you all are wise and i trust that your words and actions are pure but honestly you can speculate and how or what you should do in each and every situation and you can practice it until the day you die, but until you are in that specific situation you will NOT know how you are going to react and what you are going to do. Remember there are always unknown variables that you are not going to count on or rehearse for. you all know my situation and such as my child being here when something went down, i never practiced or thought about how i would react to someone having me at gunpoint with my child there, that changes everything. so just remember you can practice all you want but there was always be the unknown that can get you killed or keep you alive. I always have said " i will fight an intruder and i will not go down to the execution position and go out like that, but when my kid was here so i did what i had to do to keep us alive. just my opinion as a victim

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    "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of." -Suzanna Gratia Hupp

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    But in all seriousness, for option A) I will draw and order them to lay on the ground if anyone moves I will shoot and be justified in Texas. I will call 911 and wait for the cops. For option B) I am going to throw my wallet away from me past the bad guy and if he doesnt go for it he means to do me harm and I will resolve to draw and shoot. If he does go for it I break into a run, draw and cover my escape. If I am with my family I will tell them to run, stand my ground draw and fire.
    "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of." -Suzanna Gratia Hupp

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    In situation A: draw and fire. He opened the dance by showing a weapon and demanding my money.

    In situation B: Hard to give a good answer, to many variables

    If gut feeling tell me he's going to shoot if I give him what he wants anyways, wait for the smallest break available and go for my gun.

    If gut feelings say he's going to take the money and run, let him have it and call police when safe to.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum Matty!

    As related to your scenarios both can be answered if you read and study the following thread...

    November 27th, 2007, 01:39 AM
    DefensiveCarry Concealed Carry Forum > Defensive Carry Discussions > Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ard-times.html

    This information was archived and has been available among other useful items of note at the Reference & "How To" Forum sub area within this site.

    The answers to your scenario questions should become self evident upon reviewing the link I've provided.

    As well as we here _always_ strongly encourage, it is incumbent upon you to read, study and KNOW the laws of the state(s) and locality(s) as where you yourself may locate yourself as related to being armed and use of _any_ force toward defense of self and/or property.
    some state allow what many other states do not, and some states deem property to be of less than value than that all human life while others allow select circumstances as toward retention and/or retrieval of property.

    The answer to your scenario, which gets posted like every third week of near exact same circumstance, is very much specific to where this is supposed to have occurred.
    An answer relevant to NY state is very different than as for NYC than it is for say MA, MI, MD or TX.
    Each location would have a different final 'answer' of what is right, as in supported as a lawful victim reaction by law/statute.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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