Store security system goes nuts.... - Page 3

Store security system goes nuts....

This is a discussion on Store security system goes nuts.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by xsigma40cal I walk into various stores around the city and on occasion the security system for shoplifters goes off coz of the ...

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Thread: Store security system goes nuts....

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsigma40cal View Post
    I walk into various stores around the city and on occasion the security system for shoplifters goes off coz of the barcode on my weapon.
    What specific firearm do you have, that you presume causes security systems to wig out?

    Supposedly, certain Heckler-Koch firearms have such devices embedded.

    Does anyone know about such security systems? Seems silly that they would be programmed to respond to security codes that failed to be within range of ones the store cared about (ie, a firearm in a grocery store; or a CD at the clothing shop). I mean, from the store owner's perspective, it seems irrelevant that someone walks in with code X when the store only cares about Y and Z in their inventory.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    Eh, perhaps its a something else. Im a bit skiddish at the prospect of being searched and then the freaks out, screaming and cracking his voice at the sight of my gun. But seriously, on the SigmaVE's they have a barcode on the bottom of the accessory rail. Not sure if anyone else has these on their guns, but that was my first guess.

  3. #33
    Member Array Damion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Bar code on a pistol? Did you buy your pistol in Commiefornia?
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  4. #34
    Member Array jerzsubbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    "Walmart cannot force you to stop at the door to check your receipt; illegal detainment. "

    Don't know about that; Sam's Club (A W-M owned Co.) checks receipts of every buggy going out the door.
    Just because they do it doesn't mean it's legal. But I'll point out that they cannot force you to stop and show your receipt. There is nothing saying that they can't ask you to.


    Quote Originally Posted by tflhndn View Post
    Um, this is not totally true.

    In most states, a store has what is called "the shopkeepers defense" or "shopkeepers privilege"

    Basically, it means that a shopkeeper may detain someone reasonably suspected of shoplifting or stealing without being liable for the tort of illegal detainment.

    A security RFID system going off is usually considered reasonable suspicion for the purposes of detainment.
    I've worked in retail in NJ, PA, DE and NC and never heard of that being the case in either state. You may be correct that NC(since I only worked retail there for a short time) or some other states have that law, which IMO is great if they do, but even still the store managers have to worry about staying within corporate policy as well as the law. Corporate policies are typically very liberal and err on the side of reducing liability rather than a $100 theft.

  5. #35
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    Whether store exercise their privilege, it still exists. It is what allows a store keeper to detain someone suspected of shoplifting until police arrive, or until it is clear that person has not taken anything.

    Store keeper's privilege is an element of common law - which is the basis of law for all states except Louisiana (which uses Napoleonic code).

    Just because big boxes don't exercise it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

    A store keeper CAN forcibly detain you if he has a reasonable suspicion you have stolen from him - and a RFID alarm going off gives them reasonable suspicion.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array PatrioticRick's Avatar
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    My wife kept setting off the the alarms in every store we went to, finally we stopped and the clerk in Walgreen's on the way in had a portable scanner, it turned out to be her new jacket with the tag sewn in the seam. Got out the trusty pocket knife and cut it out, problem solved.
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  7. #37
    Member Array jerzsubbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tflhndn View Post
    Whether store exercise their privilege, it still exists. It is what allows a store keeper to detain someone suspected of shoplifting until police arrive, or until it is clear that person has not taken anything.

    Store keeper's privilege is an element of common law - which is the basis of law for all states except Louisiana (which uses Napoleonic code).

    Just because big boxes don't exercise it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

    A store keeper CAN forcibly detain you if he has a reasonable suspicion you have stolen from him - and a RFID alarm going off gives them reasonable suspicion.
    I think we're approaching the same consensus but from different angles. I wasn't aware of the common law principle by name but do understand it. My point was that a store cannot detain you because they simple "think" you stole something. That is what I was trying to explain in my first post. You are correct that a door alarm going off would give them reasonable suspicion along with my example of reasonable suspicion, an employee witnessing the act.

    My comment of walmart, or any other store for that matter, not being able to force you to stop at the door so that they may check your receipt remains. If they haven't witnessed you attempt to steal anything or no RFID door alarm goes off they cannot force you to stop. You have every right to simply respond, "No, thanks." or No, thanks. I'm running late... I'm in a rush... I don't feel like digging for it... etc."
    I know someone here in NC who had this exact issue and the manager had to explain the law to the door man. Needless to say they never ask this person to see their receipt because said person will just keep on walking

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tflhndn View Post
    Whether store exercise their privilege, it still exists. It is what allows a store keeper to detain someone suspected of shoplifting until police arrive, or until it is clear that person has not taken anything.

    Store keeper's privilege is an element of common law - which is the basis of law for all states except Louisiana (which uses Napoleonic code).

    Just because big boxes don't exercise it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

    A store keeper CAN forcibly detain you if he has a reasonable suspicion you have stolen from him - and a RFID alarm going off gives them reasonable suspicion.
    An RFID alarm system going off shouldn't be enough reasonable suspicion given how many false positives there are regularly around the country in just about every store. Make no mistake...whether or not they have the authority to do so, to use force to detain the wrong person(ie me) just on an alarm going off could go over like a turd in a punchbowl.

    If I stay(which I normally do when those darn things go off) it's because I choose to do so. Anyone other than verifiable LEO attempting to physically detain or restrain me in any manner is going to soon find out what it feels like to be hit by a 9lb hammer or worse...
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  9. #39
    Member Array Machina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    What specific firearm do you have, that you presume causes security systems to wig out?

    Supposedly, certain Heckler-Koch firearms have such devices embedded.

    Does anyone know about such security systems? Seems silly that they would be programmed to respond to security codes that failed to be within range of ones the store cared about (ie, a firearm in a grocery store; or a CD at the clothing shop). I mean, from the store owner's perspective, it seems irrelevant that someone walks in with code X when the store only cares about Y and Z in their inventory.
    RFID chips can be as simple as an antenna and a chip. The antenna converts a small amount of radio frequency energy to run the chip, the chip uses the energy to transmit a sequence at a certain frequency, and shuts off.

    If the broadcaster is within range to receive the sequence at the right frequency, then it goes off, knowing a compatible chip is within range of the broadcaster. RFID tags in credit cards work similarly, but at larger frequencies.

    It's easy to kill an RFID tag by broadcasting a very strong signal at the correct frequency, providing too much power to the chip and killing it. I'll be doing this with my new virginia license soon, as there are RFID readers being placed at stop lights, as well as an integrated RFID chip in the license. For what purpose I don't care; RFID is horribly encrypted and needs to be changed before I use it. All you need is a compatible reader to read the RFID chips in credit cards and yank someone's information without them even knowing.

    In short, a simple barcode or a firearm is not enough to trigger an alarm system in a store. There is something on your person that does contain an RFID chip but a chunk of metal, be it a knife or gun, doesn't set it off.

    On a side note, I do not show my receipt to walmart employees or anywhere else except costco. Costco states in their contract of membership that they will check customers as a loss prevention tactic. Walmart has no such contract, and I refuse to be treated like a criminal just because I shop there. Not all walmarts do it either.

    Not showing a receipt is NOT reasonable suspicion to detain someone. If someone tries to detain me because I won't show a receipt I'll act how I would to someone on the street trying to detain me, appropriately. However, I have yet to have one person stop me because I did not show them my receipt.
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  10. #40
    Member Array centermass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Sigma,

    See my thread here; http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-clothing.html

    It happened to me too, and it is has nothing to do with bar codes.


    Source - Re: Hidden security tags in Old Navy jeans < Shopping & Stuff < Wolfstad Blog

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    I have one of those tags in a pair of jeans I wear often. Guess I need to cut it out.
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  11. #41
    Member Array centermass's Avatar
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    Sure enough! I went and cut the tag out and opened it up. It has a chip in it that says Checkpoint with the registered symbol . Good catch Jang!
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  12. #42
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    Sam's Club and Costco have the right to make you wait while they check your receipt because you gave them that right when you signed the membership contract. Wal-Mart does NOT have the same right, because there's no contractual agreement to that effect.

    There are no RFID chips in guns (or "mark of the Devil" barcodes, for that matter). And even if there were, not all store security systems are RF based. Some of them are magnetic.

  13. #43
    Member Array mikeprekopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maudite View Post
    Sam's Club and Costco have the right to make you wait while they check your receipt because you gave them that right when you signed the membership contract. Wal-Mart does NOT have the same right, because there's no contractual agreement to that effect.
    Maudite beat me to it, but basically you have to stop and let them check it because of the fine print you signed. If you decided not to stop, I have personally seen managers go through security footage and order logs and revoke someone's membership because of this. Its always fun explaining to someone their membership was revoked for whatever reason.
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  14. #44
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    Regarding the barcodes... many FN-H pistols have the stickers firmly placed somewhere on the slide.

    HK started putting a circular slot underneath the backstrap to fit an RFID for some innocent reason, and I recall seeing one with a chip actually installed. Mine just has the circle indent, not the actual tag.

    Exxon Speedpass has an RFID, your work ID probably has an RFID, metro passes, fob keys, they all have RFIDS. One of the above would be my guess.

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