What's legal to do in this scenario?

This is a discussion on What's legal to do in this scenario? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! Stop right now or I'll shoot! This is Texas, after all. Once the knife appears, all bets are off. ...

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Thread: What's legal to do in this scenario?

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
    Stop right now or I'll shoot!

    This is Texas, after all. Once the knife appears, all bets are off. No warning, no reasoning, no pepper spray. And my buddies better be drawin' and doin' the the same.

    "Did you shoot to kill?"
    "No sir. I shot to stop."
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

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  3. #47
    New Member Array Headed North's Avatar
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    Fwiw

    "It matters not that they may seem to be"

    (disguises)

    True life for me as i was "robbed" while closing a restaurant with another employee (my GF) years ago in So Cal (I did not own a gun and was unarmed) The perp ~5'5" 140 (male) was dressed as a female and pretending to be talking on the phone near back of building, he/she appeared to be legit but as we exited the building he walked up and pulled a 9 or .45 in front of me 1 foot from my chest and walked us back in. My GF being there too really complicated the psychology... everything an amateur "thinks" he knows goes out the window at this time. Adrenaline prepares you for life or death.
    To cut it short, we were ok and he was captured later... presently in Arizona we have a seriel shooter probably dressed in disguise- in referring to original question, two drunks in the alley may not be drunks at all- never assume anything but that the extreme is possible and prepare.
    1. I'd shout as loudly as possible a verbal warning in both directions to carry alert
    1.1 Arm and secure weapon while shouting (BGs only 20-30 feet away?)
    2. I'm backed to wall now with BGs in front & off to sides, BG instantly advances (can only see one at a time now... draw, point ,fire, drop to ground (clear from knife) and tap his buddy#2 -only if facing me, check #1
    3. Pull camera phone, photograph scene, call authorities.

    -Ask "friends" why they ditched
    - Come up with an explanation for why we were walking down a dark alley (or similar)
    - Come up with an explanation for why I was carrying in an establishement that serves alcohol

    In short:
    1. Appearances are deceiving- a frail looking perp could be in disguise to soften you up. (what happened to me)
    2. Stay away from environments that predispose you to threat.
    3. If you break the law prior to defense, you may be in trouble too.

    Just joined forum, promising to keep posts rare and shorter.

    Thanks to all- very good community.

  4. #48
    Member Array Sam Douthit's Avatar
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    True story. I am in a bar two guys one a hulking huge well muscled guy and the other about average size. The small guy stabs the big one in the gut. The trial resulted in the stabber paying 1200 bucks for the stabbees wound and community service. Had he backed to the wall before stabbing the 275 lb wrestler he would have gone scot free. Backing to the wall seems to have a place in legal jargon. I recall the old saw; my back was against the wall. If they keep coming when your back is against the wall then shoot.
    Sambo74
    SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array joleary223's Avatar
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    Sounds like you are surrounded, no way to retreat. Shoot to kill!! Your life and the lives of your friends are in jepardy. btw, 20 feet is about two seconds away from a stab wound and you have BG's on two fronts. act fast.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    You should NEVER put yourself in such a situation. Your brain is your most important weapon - don't leave home without it!

    If you did, the fact that these 'drunks' were sober enough to trap you would indicate that drawing and immidiate shooting is required. They are way tooo close with knives.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Reverse the whole senario and use common sense and you will not take the ally. If you do take the ally and the BG have you cornered you don't have much of a choice. Pull your gun and in a loud voice tell them to stop. If they decide to advance shoot and take them both out.
    Last edited by Tom G; April 21st, 2007 at 10:44 PM.

  8. #52
    Ex Member Array HOLYROLLER's Avatar
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    Give up your wallet.

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    read your state laws. I imagine you need to 1. be unable to flee 2. in fear of your life. I will not give legal advice, but tactically acparmed has it pretty well covered.
    Besides that in many places you would not be legally armed after being where you stated. So if your in NC you are a group find a club or run together.

  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post
    Someone pulls a weapon on me and is close enough that I can tell it is a weapon and they threaten me with it, they are getting shot plain and simple. They have until I draw, click off the safety, and put the front sight on them to put the weapon down and kiss the ground.
    I'm with Freak here.

    You hold a knife and threaten me with it and you are getting shot. Drunk or not. I am not going HTH with you just because you are drunk or impaired.

    I value my life. If you try to take it, you don't value yours.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

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  11. #55
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    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
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    Question Here In Florida...

    I'm with my wife...two scumbags have us trapped in an alley with knives?

    I know two people who 'ain't' gonna' be gettin' a tan tomorrow...

    I don't want to shoot anyone...don't hassle me...surely don't try to corner me and mine with knives...

    Refer to said rule..."Don't bring a knife to a gun fight!"

    I'll take my chances...

    Stay armed...stay safe!

    ret
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  12. #56
    Member Array American Pit Bull's Avatar
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    In any scenario in which I am accosted with a deadly weapon (the second guy didn't have to be there) I am clearing and shooting. If in the split second that I am drawing on the BG, he turns to run, he will not get shot.

    Drawing and threatening, or any hesitation for that matter, puts your life at risk. 21' rule is a good example.

    Another bad idea is to try to detain the BG for the LEOs to get there. You are not trained to do this and all you are doing is putting your life in danger. If you don't have to shoot, get the hell out of there and be thankful that you were able to go home that night.

  13. #57
    Member Array BonoVox's Avatar
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    First off the guy has a bottle in a sack. Who says he is drunk and if he is then to what degree??? To assume wrong might get you killed.

    So the one thing you know for certain is two people have just pulled knives on you and have you trapped. A knife can kill you as fast or faster than a gun. If one of them is within 30 feet and closing I clearing leather with the intention of shooting. Unless he drops his knife in the time it takes me to draw I am shooting.

    21 feet is for a lone attacker. If you shoot one guy and the other is 21 feet away "behind you" he will be on you before you can turn on him. After I shoot first BG I will turn and asses second BG. If he is closing I am shooting him too. If he drops knife and puts his hands up or runs. Then I am done.

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitznig View Post
    ... takes out a knife and demands your wallet. You turn around to run away but realize his buddy is right behind you with another knife. What is the legal action to take here?
    Use any and all force immediately, up to and including lethal force, to terminate the threat(s).

    One knife is assault with a deadly weapon. You're highly likely to get killed. A coordinated two-person assault is almost certainly to be understood by folkf as disparity of force as well. Either way: you're authorized to use any force up to and including immediate use of lethal force to end the threat ... in any juristiction in the USA that I'm aware of. Of course, that isn't to say you won't be trussed and trimmed like the holiday turkey for doing so, financially, but that's the way these things go.

    If you're truly uncertain about such a clear situation, I'd suggest several things:
    • Acquire a copy of Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme." It's a classic book outlining the pros/cons and risks of concealed carry. It also neatly covers the basic rules of engagement for the use of a firearm in self-defense.
    • Read this: Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy.
    • Strongly consider attending a course from the Lethal Force Institute. As you're in Washington, just down the road at the Firearms Academy of Seattle they are hosting Ayoob for two sessions in this year: LFI 1: The Judicious Use Of Lethal Force; and LFI 2 (covering more-advanced topics). These are serious training courses that will help get your mind (and skills) right, in regards to using force to defend life.
    • Speak with and retain a qualified attorney who is skilled and successful in the defense of people engaged in the justifiable use of deadly force in defense of life. Why? Your life may well depend on getting this right, quickly, when the chips are down. If you have not yet contacted an attorney, you might consider Robert Zielke, of the Zielke Law Firm in Seattle, at least for an initial consultation.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  15. #59
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    read your state laws. I imagine you need to 1. be unable to flee 2. in fear of your life. I will not give legal advice, but tactically acparmed has it pretty well covered.

    As I understand it, most states that have a requirement to flee have a requirement to flee if you can do so SAFELY.

    I would not recommend trying to flee down a narrow alley past a guy who has a knife. I would not think that could be expected to happen "safely."

    I think you'd be well within your rights to draw and fire if necessary.
    Who could argue that two men pulled knives out in your presence in an alley but they did not threaten harm?

    We know that knife wounds tend to easily be far less survivable than gunshot wounds, so anyone who argues, "Oh, you pulled a gun, but all he had was a knife?" is full of it and doesn't know what he's talking about. Make sure your lawyer is well versed in the lethality of knife wounds and has a lot of nice color photographs of examples to show the jury -- if you even have to face a jury.

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    The situation described provides ample justification for the use of deadly force. In a gun vs. knife situation, distance is normally your friend, but with one BG on each side, the best response would probably be to draw and fire while aggressively moving towards them (and away from the other). Once the first assailant has been stopped, turn and be prepared to deal with the second.

    As others have said, the real solution here is to refrain from taking the shortcut through the alley in the first place.

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