How many times?
This is a discussion on How many times? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So after my little "incident" last Thursday on the commute in, I'm wondering how many of you have ever had an incident where either you ...
February 8th, 2010 02:09 AM
How many times?
So after my little "incident" last Thursday on the commute in, I'm wondering how many of you have ever had an incident where either you have been a victim of gun violence, a threat with a gun, or if you were in a situation where you had to draw and call police, get records of the incident, etc.
So here's why I ask and what I am most fearing.......... in the past two years, I've now had TWO incidents in which I have been a victim of an 'almost' violent, guns-involved crime!
In June of 2008, while staying at a hotel with my wife and kids, my hotel room door was pushed in on me and a woman under the influence of drugs came into the room. Police responded, lots of folks (including myself) were handcuffed until it was all sorted out, and then they understood I was the good guy and let me go. It took about 4 days for me to get my pistol back, since I had drawn the weapon on her as she was threatening myself and my family.
Second incident now just happened last week; where I'm driving in to the office, and a man with a gun points it right at me and follows me to the office, then drives away. Again, as in the first time, I initiatied the 911 call and did the correct thing by calling police ASAP.
My concern is.... now that there are TWO documented police reports (records) of me being involved in a BGWG (bad guy with gun) situation, even though they were no fault or instigation of mine; Heaven forbid a SHTF situation did happen and I did have to use my weapon in self-defense, would I now be considered someone who has a "history of gun-related incidents?"
I am truly concerned and perhaps obsessing about this !!! Both times, even though I gave full account of what happened and the LEOs agreed there was nothing done at fault by me, there still is now an official record. My name is on these reports of having had incidents in which one, I drew my gun; and the other, I was drawn on.
Kind of makes me scared to think of open carrying, etc. - basically afraid of doing anything that would get law enforcement involved (as I could now be seen as some type of troublemaker, or trouble seems to follow me, or just one sad luck Charlie Brown kinda guy). But the point is... I am concerned and I am seeking advice from LEOs and other forum members on here.
Any of you have a "rap sheet of records," even though you've obviously never been at fault ? If so, ever have more than one incident where you've "made contact" with LEOs and they have an official record of what occurred? Ever worry you?
I guess I'm letting all the comments from my co-workers and employer get to me over this incident last Thursday, but it does get me thinking VERY seriously! I'm tired of having everyone tell me that "gun trouble seems to follow you, Billy!" "Looks like your gun totin' ideals just don't pay off, huh?" "One of these days your lucks gonna run out!" etc. etc. etc. etc. on and on and on.......... (sigh)
I really don't care what my ANTI co workers think, BUT I DO CARE WHAT JOHNNY LAW MIGHT THINK OF ME, and although I've done nothing wrong, I'll admit I am second guessing if I am the real-life bad luck Charlie Brown!
Would really appreciate your thoughts........
"Bad Luck Billy G" (sigh)
February 8th, 2010 02:09 AM
February 8th, 2010 02:46 AM
Relax Billy and take a step back to regroup. You said it yourself, you're letting all the comments from your ill informed coworkers get to you. In both cases you came out alive, healthy and in the right. That's victory my friend. Don't worry about a paper trail, it means nothing.
February 8th, 2010 03:02 AM
As stated, "relax".
If you haven't already done so, I'd buy and read Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme. After that I'd start looking for some good training courses in your area, or a location you can travel to, like Massad Ayoob's new Massad Ayoob Group, Seattle Firearms Academy, or Defense Associates in CT.
Confrontational Avoidance is the key IMHO. Learn from your past expiriences and move on, gathering more knowledge as you move. Instead of looking for "danger", look for ways to avoid "danger".
I'm not saying that you are looking for a confrontation, but maybe your viewing things from the wrong lens so to speak. Nor am I criticizing the way you handled your situations, as I wasn't there, and I'm only getting one version of what happened. My intent of this post is to give you some food for thought, and point you in the direction of better training.
February 8th, 2010 05:22 AM
Having been near some other criminal who blew sideways, or having been the unwitting target of some other criminal who blew sideways, you yourself are hardly "on record" as being a threat of any sort.
Originally Posted by bgriffin70
Of course, unscrupulous zealotry being what it is, you could certainly have an energetic investigating officer and/or DA read between the lines of such things. Yes, they could infer a tendency, of sorts, to become involved with such things. Generally speaking, such things are rare for most people. Though, two incidence in two years isn't exactly high-frequency.
The type of comments from your co-workers is a bit disconcerting. Some of them do appear to have the typical, knee-jerk, fearful viewpoint that guns=crime=bad=you. Which is utter horse manure, of course. But many of them feel that way, based on their comments to you. Caution. If you speak too frequently with them on such matters ("guns"), you'll solidify the impression that you're a "gun" guy, that you've got guns on the brain, etc. I wouldn't think it is a bad thing to quietly reject the silly comments that are implying your involvement in defensive firearms has something to do with attacks on you. But beyond that I would simply let it quiet down and stop.
I'm tired of having everyone tell me that "gun trouble seems to follow you, Billy!" "Looks like your gun totin' ideals just don't pay off, huh?" "One of these days your lucks gonna run out!" etc. etc. etc. etc. on and on and on.......... (sigh)
I would simply ensure that you have both situations well documented; that you have copies of all relevant reports and writings related to the two incidents you speak of; and that you supply your attorney with copies of these. They're not indicative of your own bad behavior. At worst, they're indicative of your forced response in the face of deadly threat. If anything, that's a good thing, a good indication of your ability to handle such things in a cool, calm, responsible manner. Treat it as such, since that's what it was.
If you're truly concerned, speak with your attorney about it.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
February 8th, 2010 05:28 AM
Your record should still be clean...you haven't done anything. Now your name might be on the record of two other people, that's about it.
I wouldn't worry about it.
Why would the police take your gun if you were uncuffed and known to have been the victim and didn't fire your weapon? Do they always take guns away from victims who have done nothing? I don't get that part...
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
February 8th, 2010 07:13 AM
In my much younger years, I had 4 occasions where I was staring down the business end of a gun. Once, shots fired in the air before lowering said business end....presumably to inform me that said business was open. Everyone walked away and police not called. I wasn't exactly running with the "lets call the police" crowd at that time.
I don't think you have anything to be concerned about. If your co-workers didn't know you carry, they wouldn't be giving you grief. Sounds like folks I wouldn't share much with in the future.
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.
February 8th, 2010 11:08 AM
you need to talk to a proffessional....youre putting a lot of pressure on yourself since this last encounter and you need to sort it out before it eats you alive...
you dont have anything to worry about because you havent done anything wrong....the response to an over zealous district attorney would be something like "you try to put an awful lot of people in jail and sometimes they are innocent....i would be more worried about that"....
relax guy...you did the right thing and now other people who werent there are getting into your head...you need to find a way to let it go...you are worrying about becoming a carreer victim and its not the case...
February 8th, 2010 03:18 PM
Look at it this way.....You had your weapon on you, you deployed it once and were ready to deploy it again. YOU ARE STILL ALIVE. What if the girl that broke into your hotel room had a gun, what if the guy in the vehicle didnt turn around. You used your tool the way its meant to be used. Do not beat yourself up, there is a reason you got your CCW and that was to protect you and your family.
Don"t let stupid be your skill set....
February 8th, 2010 03:36 PM
Thanks for the encouragement, everyone. But it still worries me and I'm trying my very best to keep away from people, avoid any kind of situation that might even, in the least little bit, even think of starting confrontation. And finally, I am becoming a very SILENT person at work. I'll speak if spoken to, everything's 100% business, and that's that.
It makes for a rather lonely feeling at work to have to deal with people who think I am the one who starts trouble, but at least the comments and negativity has toned down (so far.)
February 8th, 2010 04:14 PM
Don't worry about the past, that is not a polices record, yes you have been involved in the past self defense issues, that is the reason we carry, just shows that you're living in a dangerous state, county, city, whatever, but don't be discouraged
Timid people sleep peacefully at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
February 8th, 2010 07:55 PM
You have nothing to worry about from either incident.
I would stop discussing firearms at work. You should have never
let them know about your having guns or carrying. That is water under the bridge now. If you don't keep bringing guns up at work the bullcrap will die down eventually. You should never have informed them of either incident. Especally the last one. If work wanted to know why the police were talking to you you should have told them it was a nut case harassing you. You might go into the office and off handed say the pressure of carrying was to much, "I got scared and gave it up. Got a good price for them."
Take a class on carrying and get some good learning about dealing with people. Not giving you grieve just some advice. Good Luck!
P.S. I have had to deal with facing down a few people.
February 8th, 2010 09:47 PM
I am reading between the lines here, so correct me if I am wrong.
Originally Posted by bgriffin70
I get out of the above, that you had no previous incidents at work, or that the co-workers know about. You ahve been with them a while. Now, that one incident has occurred, of which you proport that you did not provoke, and now thay are on your case?
Its them who need professional help.
Next, although the HR dept may be pushing it by requesting a police or any formal report, I can see where they are coming from (and trying to go to). I was the Asst. EH&S (and security) coordinator. We wanted to know anything that happened to the employees on or near company property. The police dept recommended this, because if there was anything, even remotely, resembling a trend, THEY would provide a beefed up security in our area. We even reported people snooping in the parking lot, which was an old strip plaza, and deemed "public property". They came right down an questioned the snoopers. Then there was a drug bust in the back of the building that was recorded from the security cams.
Wait until they cool down, and the comments subside. Do your job.
But, if you hate the job that much, quietly start looking for another. If you have a job, finding another one is a lot easier. This sounds like an isolated incident. However, if it were me, I would take a different way to work.
My response to the question which may be asked by a fellow worker or management: Do you have a gun? My response will be, "if your is question is: am I armed now, the answer is no!"
Now, to answer your question: I had an incident many years ago in a company truck where a mugger came up to the open window with a knife while stopped downtown not more than 2 blocks from the city police station, where i just finished a two way radio night callout. My walther PPK against his nose stopped that in a hurry. Did not have to shoot; he was gone and running turbos... BTW, I had a permit and my employer knew I carried concealed. he basically said keep it out of view.
Last week I was hit in the rear while doing 60 on a rural road. I posted this in scenerios. Paranoid? Maybe. If so, I got that way from reading the reports on this website......
February 8th, 2010 11:57 PM
I don't think the second one even counts as you having a gun in an incident. Unless it were to go to trial or something and the BG accused you of instigating with your gun, but he didn't even know you had it. I think you are good to go.
February 9th, 2010 12:24 AM
First of all you were not the subject the police were called on. Second, in both cases you did not fire your weapon. Even if you did and it was justified it would not matter. It's not like you have a limit on how many times you can defend yourself from being a victim of a crime.
You have enough to think about without worrying about this going against you.
Good Luck, rk
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27
February 9th, 2010 09:52 AM
A comment on your co-workers. They think you are a crazed gun nut. They continue to verbally harrass you about being a crazed gun nut. If they really fear you and your gun, they can't be too bright.
Ignore them. They are idiots. You did well in both situations.
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