Book Store Scenario Revised

This is a discussion on Book Store Scenario Revised within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Maybe it is just my personality, or maybe because I am a guy, but I would rather do something than do nothing, try to "fix" ...

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Thread: Book Store Scenario Revised

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Maybe it is just my personality, or maybe because I am a guy, but I would rather do something than do nothing, try to "fix" the problem. Clearly not just a do something for the sake of it, but realistically do whatever I can to make the sittuation better. If I were to just sit back or leave through a side door, and then he did kill someone, or several people, I would be tortured with knowing that I could have done something and they would still be alive for the rest of my life.

    That being said, there are so many variables, you can not know exactly what would happen or how I would react, but I would lean towards the side of taking cover and trying to get a good shot when the BG is isolated away from innocents. The threats with the gun and "herding" of the hostages would be enough cause to fear for my life and those of the others.
    Walk softly ...

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I'll take, "Move in and shoot the dirtbag" for $400...
    LOL. I love it! Retsupt never lets me down!
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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    LOL. I love it! Retsupt never lets me down!
    +1....
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

    -Will Rogers

    Im a big fan of the .22LR for bear defense.
    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    ...when you type it all out like that, it really brings home, to me, the big advantage that the bad guys have over the rest of us....
    It's true 9MM.

    Not intending to be a thread spoiler/wet towel but the sad reality is that the BGs have us at a disadvantage. Always have and always will.

    There is no way to have a God's eye view or to know before hand Miss Cleo style what is about to occur and/or how things might play out.
    This is the reality of things for us all, civilians and LEO alike. : |

    Take note toward any one of the videos I posted.
    Every one of them shows what your sidebar touches on; Us at a disadvantage.

    So when these type threads pop up and folk are like easy just shoot OR easy just hide & dial 911 or easy just leave.
    I to myself wonder about variables. Scenario specific conditional variables.

    If only life were always as easy & simple in math as 1+1-1=1

    Unfortunately though very often if not most often real world scenarios play out as like a quadratic equation which most of us learned (and likely forgot for lack of functional practice) as back in Jr. HS or HS...



    Choose your own adventure. ^^

    In your specific situation of life and the decisions/plays you make, you either come to be +4 or -4...And at that in the end net to the positive or negative.

    No matter which end you come to among the math there often for other is and likely will be for any one of us work involved and with that quite possibly loss of sweat, tears and/or our own blood. : |

    - Janq

    P.S. - Real world, my name is not John McClain. My name is Nobody.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
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    When you're shoulder deep in "poop", keep your mouth shut.....
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

    -Will Rogers

    Im a big fan of the .22LR for bear defense.
    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    This is difficult. If I am hiding, I would observe, if he begins killing the others, I would move in and shoot him until he stopped. In my state for a shooting in defense of others to be justified, they have to be in actual danger. Not just me believing others are in danger. So I would not shoot until they were in danger, proven by him killing one. If my life came into danger, I would shoot.
    If I was in the herd, I would shoot him at first opportunity.

    If my family is in the herd group, I will risk a murder charge and shoot him at the first chance, even if it is in the back, even if he hasn't harmed anyone yet.

    But- I believe that what you say you will do beforehand is not really a good indicator of what you would really do. I think that in the moment, you rely more on feeling, and animal instict.

  8. #22
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Forgot one element in the store scenario. Typical with most small retail stores are those wonderful curved mirrors that let the cashier see the activity in the various aisles that aren't directly visible from the cash register. That's important because the concealment you THOUGHT you had will disappear in a flash if the robber simply glances at the mirror and sees you. Then whatever time you thought you had to plan out the response is gone and the danger has radically escalated. You can't just wait it out.

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    Forgot one element in the store scenario. Typical with most small retail stores are those wonderful curved mirrors that let the cashier see the activity in the various aisles that aren't directly visible from the cash register. That's important because the concealment you THOUGHT you had will disappear in a flash if the robber simply glances at the mirror and sees you. Then whatever time you thought you had to plan out the response is gone and the danger has radically escalated. You can't just wait it out.
    Again not to change the scenario but most large robberies which heard sheep won't have a single criminal. There would be more. This way one would heard the sheep and the other ones "clear the isles"

    A single robber Vs a store full of is more then likely to have an adrenaline rush and a mild case of tunnel vision. Its unlikely he will be looking in mirrors for hidden victims... But lets play along...

    Assuming I am not in the line of sight I would be behind hard cover. BG sees me in mirror and commands me to come over. If I comply I would be at the BG's mercy and I lose all options. Holding my ground will either result in....

    A he will come over and I can drop him away from the ,
    B he will finish quickly and leave,
    C he starts shooting blindly in the general direction in which case I would be hitting the deck and praying.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    A he will come over and I can drop him away from the ,
    B he will finish quickly and leave,
    C he starts shooting blindly in the general direction in which case I would be hitting the deck and praying.
    lots of assumptions...biggest problem with these scenarios is that everyone seems to think they can predict what a bg is gonna do...biggest advantage a bg has is that they are unpredictable and generally care about one thing only...themselves...

    for the poster who thinks he can get a shot off and take the guy down before he pulls the trigger on the pregnant woman...you are about to watch a pregnant woman die...unless you can place a perfect shot (is it the medula?) just reflex alone will be all it takes to pull the trigger and it is probably going to happen...this isnt the movies...that stuff doesnt really happen...

    the post regarding the bg not having to think about anyones safety is spot on..triggering a wildly shooting thief would be a real eye opener...they arent looking for open shooting lanes...they are looking to eliminate a threat and anything else that they feel is necessary without regard for safety of others...you do have to think about that...

    the reason janq's posts always bring it home is that he accurately presents everything someone actually has to think about in a situation...as opposed to just posting what we wish could happen...

    there are too many variable to be considered to play the scenario out on paper...unless youre writing a script...and thats not going to be real life...is it?...

    man janq...i was just helping my daughter with her math last night...that problem almost gava me a nervous twitch....

  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    lots of assumptions...biggest problem with these scenarios is that everyone seems to think they can predict what a bg is gonna do...biggest advantage a bg has is that they are unpredictable and generally care about one thing only...themselves...

    for the poster who thinks he can get a shot off and take the guy down before he pulls the trigger on the pregnant woman...you are about to watch a pregnant woman die...unless you can place a perfect shot (is it the medula?) just reflex alone will be all it takes to pull the trigger and it is probably going to happen...this isnt the movies...that stuff doesnt really happen...

    the post regarding the bg not having to think about anyones safety is spot on..triggering a wildly shooting thief would be a real eye opener...they arent looking for open shooting lanes...they are looking to eliminate a threat and anything else that they feel is necessary without regard for safety of others...you do have to think about that...

    the reason janq's posts always bring it home is that he accurately presents everything someone actually has to think about in a situation...as opposed to just posting what we wish could happen...

    there are too many variable to be considered to play the scenario out on paper...unless youre writing a script...and thats not going to be real life...is it?...

    man janq...i was just helping my daughter with her math last night...that problem almost gava me a nervous twitch....
    Really I was just playing along. However it is unlikely the BG will be looking in mirrors to find me, which is what I said in the first part of that post.

    I think the OP did a good job describing the scenario. But without assumptions there is no way to play out a simulated situation. The thread is all about "what ifs" I just made assumptions based on roll reversal.

    I still stick with my first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097
    Thats a tough and real scenario..

    I would remain concealed. Get a good description of the BG as well as what he is armed with and stay on the line with the 911 operator till the police arrive. Since I work at the store I would know the layout of it pretty well I would also tell all the info I could to the operator like other exits and such. It would be time to plan route of escape. If I am discovered I would not hesitate to draw and fire until the threat stops. I would rather lose my job for carrying then my life for not carrying.

    Rule# 17 "Don't be a hero"
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    This is difficult. If I am hiding, I would observe, if he begins killing the others, I would move in and shoot him until he stopped. In my state for a shooting in defense of others to be justified, they have to be in actual danger. Not just me believing others are in danger. So I would not shoot until they were in danger, proven by him killing one. If my life came into danger, I would shoot.
    If I was in the herd, I would shoot him at first opportunity.

    If my family is in the herd group, I will risk a murder charge and shoot him at the first chance, even if it is in the back, even if he hasn't harmed anyone yet.

    But- I believe that what you say you will do beforehand is not really a good indicator of what you would really do. I think that in the moment, you rely more on feeling, and animal instict.
    In your state (which happens to be mine also) the mere fact that the robber has threatened with a gun is plenty of justification to shoot.

    But remember to always "call 911 and be a good witness" first.

  13. #27
    Member Array joecs1's Avatar
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    My greatest obligation to anyone is to get home safely every night, to my family. Personally, if I can remain out of harms way, I will do so. I only expect to be a hero to my son and wife. Remain hidden, dial 911, keep your tactical advantage. If any part of those steps change, 1 nano-second later is game on! Be a hero by giving the police as much info as possible, real time could be the difference maker. If my family is part of the herd, is a whole other scenario!
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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    But remember to always "call 911 and be a good witness" first.
    I see this as sarcasm and criticism on this forum frequently.

    It's a poor indicator of state of mind, IMO.

    Beyond the times I and others have mentioned how introducing a gun into a situation changes all the dynamics and you no way have the control over the situation you think you do, having introduced loads of new variables.....

    Not all of us are qualified to make the shots with that 100% certainty that many others seem to have. Even with lots of training.

    Some of us know our limitations. Some of us have had to react under those adreneline dumps and know how hard it is to function precisely (and it cant be replicated in training).

    Others, as stated, have other responsibilities that they are obligated to, rather than risking all for strangers....and still not guaranteeing a good outcome.

    I am not an expert shooter, altho I practice every week. I will use my judgement in any situation....and disregard superior implications that I am a coward or selfish or less ethical.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    Forgot one element in the store scenario. Typical with most small retail stores are those wonderful curved mirrors that let the cashier see the activity in the various aisles that aren't directly visible from the cash register. That's important because the concealment you THOUGHT you had will disappear in a flash if the robber simply glances at the mirror and sees you. Then whatever time you thought you had to plan out the response is gone and the danger has radically escalated. You can't just wait it out.
    rebuttle being that if the SA gene everyone is always quoting in this forum is turned on you are more aware tha the criminal and are looking for the mirrors as part of your cover....they dont come out of nowhere...you are able to see the reflection in and placement of the mirror as well as anyone else...

  16. #30
    Member Array twocan's Avatar
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    - Janq

    P.S. - Real world, my name is not John McClain. My name is Nobody.
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