Book Store Scenario Revised - Page 3

Book Store Scenario Revised

This is a discussion on Book Store Scenario Revised within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So you call 911 and wait. Did you forget the door is locked. Everybody is in a hostage situation. Cops can"t get in you can"t ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    So you call 911 and wait. Did you forget the door is locked. Everybody is in a hostage situation. Cops can"t get in you can"t get out. When the bad guy fired the first shot he made himself fair game. If you had an opportunity to take a shot that would have been the time. The longer you wait the more control he has over the situation.
    Timing is everything. The longer you wait the worse it will get. The bad guy has shown he is willing to use lethal force. Yes, you might miss. Yes, you might have over penetration. It is going to be a gamble. You do not know what he is going to do. There are no easy pat answers. You have to rely on you gut feelings.
    Semper Fi


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    So you call 911 and wait. Did you forget the door is locked. Everybody is in a hostage situation. Cops can"t get in you can"t get out. When the bad guy fired the first shot he made himself fair game. If you had an opportunity to take a shot that would have been the time. The longer you wait the more control he has over the situation.
    Timing is everything. The longer you wait the worse it will get. The bad guy has shown he is willing to use lethal force. Yes, you might miss. Yes, you might have over penetration. It is going to be a gamble. You do not know what he is going to do. There are no easy pat answers. You have to rely on you gut feelings.
    Semper Fi
    Well for me, if he comes looking for me, I have the advantage...my gun is drawn and aimed, I've checked for backstops and angles.....I can wait until he is where "I" want him before I fire, to a certain extent, depending on concealment.

    If he doesnt come looking for me, then I monitor the situation and see what happens. I would do my best not to allow executions if I could, certainly.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I see this as sarcasm and criticism on this forum frequently.

    It's a poor indicator of state of mind, IMO.

    Beyond the times I and others have mentioned how introducing a gun into a situation changes all the dynamics and you no way have the control over the situation you think you do, having introduced loads of new variables.....

    Not all of us are qualified to make the shots with that 100% certainty that many others seem to have. Even with lots of training.

    Some of us know our limitations. Some of us have had to react under those adreneline dumps and know how hard it is to function precisely (and it cant be replicated in training).

    Others, as stated, have other responsibilities that they are obligated to, rather than risking all for strangers....and still not guaranteeing a good outcome.

    I am not an expert shooter, altho I practice every week. I will use my judgement in any situation....and disregard superior implications that I am a coward or selfish or less ethical.
    Yes you are correct , I do mean it as sarcasm in this situation. The call 911 mentality can be helpful and it can also get you killed.

    In this case the B.G. has shone intent, he doesn't know you are there,you are a responsible and capable firearm carrier, you have the advantage, take the shot.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    . The bad guy has shown he is willing to use lethal force.
    Well, he could just as easily just be there just for a robbery. It really does depend on the actual situation. You have to balance all those factors you mentioned...like missing or alerting, too soon, scared employees. I think you dont know until that specific situation...and must make the very difficult call. Some people already have their minds made up...I dont.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #35
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    RE: Janq - Not everyone that "poops" on you is your enemy, and not everyone that rescues you from "poop" is your friend.

    There is no "One" answer to this situation as we all have different mentalities. I'm not that stereotypical "Sheepdog" I dislike that term. I'm more of an Elephant. Long memory and a very thick skin but fiercely protective of my family.

    I would call and give a description of the assailant and myself and try to keep them apprised of his location and disposition. How is he acting, is he calm collected "Polite", or is he screaming and making physical violent contact with the employees. Does he appear nervous or clear headed. Is he using verbal threats? What are the angles involved, distances, backstops. They are all decisions that have to be evaluated on scene. I believe if I had the tactical advantage AND the legal advantage, and the police did not show quickly, I would shoot. I couldn't live with myself knowing I just sat there and let others be harmed but I'm going to be sure that harm is the intent of the perp.
    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Well, he could just as easily just be there just for a robbery. It really does depend on the actual situation. You have to balance all those factors you mentioned...like missing or alerting, too soon, scared employees. I think you dont know until that specific situation...and must make the very difficult call. Some people already have their minds made up...I dont.
    I believe that you do have your mind made up. You are willing to let the situation come to you and then react.

    I'm just trying to say that if you take advantage of your place in this situation you have the ability to control it.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I believe that you do have your mind made up. You are willing to let the situation come to you and then react.

    I'm just trying to say that if you take advantage of your place in this situation you have the ability to control it.

    You have no idea of my skill level....I will indeed judge a situation as it happens. And you seem to easily ignore all the variables introduced once a gun is drawn....the picture is not static. It's foolish to think you will be in control of the situation by any means.

    If I were confronted by an armed mugger, I would NOT go to my gun. Many here say they would. I do not have the speed/aim skills yet. I know this. OTOH, I would still be judging the situation and if such an opportunity presented itself, I would be prepared to take advantage of it.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I believe that you do have your mind made up. You are willing to let the situation come to you and then react.

    .

    In the scenario presented in this thread, yes. No one is doing any shooting. And I'm apparently not yet discovered by the BG. I will wait and continue to read the situation (after calling 911 because I am, apparently, a wimp).
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #39
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    In the scenario presented in this thread, yes. No one is doing any shooting. And I'm apparently not yet discovered by the BG. I will wait and continue to read the situation (after calling 911 because I am, apparently, a wimp).
    Were you called a "wimp"? And also calling 911 is not a wimpy move, it's just not the only move.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Were you called a "wimp"? And also calling 911 is not a wimpy move, it's just not the only move.
    No one said it's the only move. But for many, it's the opener....call 911 and be a good witness (observe). Neither eliminates further action...only discretion.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    In the scenario presented in this thread, yes. No one is doing any shooting. And I'm apparently not yet discovered by the BG. I will wait and continue to read the situation (after calling 911 because I am, apparently, a wimp).
    One other thing. You say " no one is doing any shooting". I suggest you re-read the O.P. Does shots fired change your mindset?

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    One other thing. You say " no one is doing any shooting". I suggest you re-read the O.P. Does shots fired change your mindset?
    Forgot that.

    The fact that he intentionally shot the ceiling to intimidate, rather than using one of many hostages indicates to me that he'd rather not shoot people unnecessarily.

    That's how I see that move. Watching things unfold, I'd have to see if he acted in a way to change that impression.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #43
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    firing a shot into the ceiling is an indication he watches too much tv...not that he is willing to shoot someone...i dont recognize shooting into the ceiling as anything different than using the gun to threaten...it is an intimidation move....shock and awe....not any more an indication of intent than carrying the gun in my opinion...

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    firing a shot into the ceiling is an indication he watches too much tv...not that he is willing to shoot someone...i dont recognize shooting into the ceiling as anything different than using the gun to threaten...it is an intimidation move....shock and awe....not any more an indication of intent than carrying the gun in my opinion...
    We will have to agree to disagree on that.

  15. #45
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    I have to agree with bubba... firing a shot into the ceiling is not only an intimidation move but its proving grounds he has a gun ready to rock and roll and he is willing and able to use it. Once that bullet leaves the barrel you see the flash and hear the report... its a game changer... Example.... police will tell a criminal to drop the gun if he is waiving it around but won't wait another second to take him down if they saw him fire a shot into the ceiling.

    It has happend quite a few times where criminals rob places using toy guns or empty or disabled guns and are successful (until they are caught). No shots fired, nobody hurt.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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