Really Happened

This is a discussion on Really Happened within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The problem I have with becoming involved is that you don't really know what's what. Is it not possible that the man with the knife ...

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  1. #76
    Member Array naking's Avatar
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    The problem I have with becoming involved is that you don't really know what's what. Is it not possible that the man with the knife wounds was the threat? There's no way to distinguish the details in the heat of the moment.

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  3. #77
    Member Array Wvshootr5191's Avatar
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    Like Eagleks said, I wasn't acting like an LEO, and I didn't got outside guns'a blazin. My main concern was my GM. I wasn't holding anyone at gunpoint or anything and no one even knew I had my weapon on me but the police officer and my GM. I was breaking up a fight. When he started at me is when the alarm went off in my head.

  4. #78
    Member Array fox2102's Avatar
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    Well i will go against the grain here by saying i probably would have done the same. To me it doesnt matter who the agressor was or not. I see someone i know in a dangerous situation i'm going to step in. When the knife came into play there is no right or wrong to me. There is me and someone with a knife. The next move is his. My gun is coming out. I'd rather answer to the DA than to watch someone unarmed be killed by someone who is

  5. #79
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fox2102 View Post
    To me it doesnt matter who the agressor was or not. When the knife came into play there is no right or wrong to me. There is me and someone with a knife. My gun is coming out.
    Pretty much my logic.

    I simply will not illegally and aggressively contribute to the escalation of a fight. And I simply will not, so long as I'm breathing, allow my life or the lives of my loved ones to be taken from me/us without a fight.

    As for others caught in such a situation, whether I will intervene will depend heavily on circumstances and likelihood of outcome.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    Good way to get hurt, sued or arrested. Maybe even all three put together.

    It takes a lot of discretion and discipline not to get over-involved. Your permit doesn't make you a citizen-policeman or even a good samaritan. It only allows you to carry a concealed weapon.

    Level of involvement is constantly debated, and I don't have an absolute answer for every situation. I'll do everything I can, use every tool available to protect myself or family members. Involvement with anyone else in peril is on a case by case basis. I might get directly involved or I might only help in some other indirect method. I might not do anything, because I'm carrying my toddler grandson to get him out of the area.

    I continually hear criticism of those who won't get involved, you can read stories nearly everyday in the paper, where someone was beaten while onlookers watched. I'm not saying not to get involved, but I'm saying you have to apply discretion and discipline first, then decide on what level of help you can render that would be appropriate.

    I admire your willingness to help, but the story as you described, would not be one that I'd tend to get over-involved in.

    Very well said!!!!!
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  7. #81
    Senior Member Array Ride4TheBrand's Avatar
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    Here's where we stand in regard to the postings in this thread:

    The vast majority of posters in this thread would do nothing but "be a good witness and call 911".


    Sheepdogs indeed.
    "We must remember that one man is much
    the same as another, and that he is best
    who is trained in the severest school."
    ~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War

  8. #82
    Member Array naking's Avatar
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    Even "sheepdogs" know that sometimes it's best to sit one out.

  9. #83
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Sheepdogs indeed.

    Originally posted by Ride4TheBrand Sheepdogs indeed.
    "Sheepdog" is a term used by people who posses both a concealed carry permit and delusions of grandeur and who believe that their permit came W/ a bat cape.

    IMO the whole sheepdog myth is nothing more than CHP elitism. It's a way for CHP holders to aggrandize themselves and pretend that their CHP gives them some type of police authority.



    I am not a sheep dog

  10. #84
    Member Array Balog's Avatar
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    Oops, is what I get for not reading the whole thread before posting.

    On the long list of "things I would not do" is "risking my life to stop one criminal from hurting another." Some people feel life is so cheap as to be spent over a $10 bag of weed, but I'm not one of them and I'll not be killed for their stupidity.

    All that being said, if I saw one man stabbing another and had no intel on the situation I might be tempted to draw on the apparent aggressor. But breaking up a fight between known drug dealers? Just a poor choice.

  11. #85
    LLT
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    Tough crowd, eh Wvshootr5191?

    I think you had good intentions overall, but I want to say this:

    It takes at least a year of intense physical, psychological and legal training to become a LEO and even then, you're "just a rookie." If CCW holders have any training at all, it's: basic gun operation, where they can and can't carry and sometimes when it's appropriate to use force (though it seems that's rarely covered.) Not how to assess dozens of different situations, de-escalate a situation, H2H and other defensive methods, etc.

    I probably never will understand how some feel a CCW grants one anything beyond simply that: the ability to carry a concealed weapon. Anybody that doesn't have a felony record can get one. In Virginia, you don't even have to leave your house - just watch a video online!

    That said, I don't think you're the typical mall ninja, Wvshootr5191.

    I can't honestly say I'd be a witness in 100% of all situations, but I can say, neither you nor your GM should have left the building and become involved. What would you have done if you had to use your weapon in a crowd of people and you killed an innocent bystander? Your life would be over. You didn't even realize he had a knife until he turned towards you - had he chosen, you'd be done right now... long before you even thought of drawing.

    It turned out "ok" (in that you went home at the end of the day) this time - but don't let that give you any grand illusions; it sounds like it could have gone wrong a number of different ways and very well may the next time.

    Good luck.

  12. #86
    Member Array ScubaDuba's Avatar
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    Excellent post. Thank you.
    Healthy children will not fear life, if their parents have integrity enough not to fear death.
    -TIME DEUM ET OPERARE IUSTITIAM--

  13. #87
    Member Array ExHippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    How well does your cell phone work from 30 yards away?
    +1 to that

  14. #88
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    If CCW holders have any training at all, it's: basic gun operation, where they can and can't carry and sometimes when it's appropriate to use force (though it seems that's rarely covered.) Not how to assess dozens of different situations, de-escalate a situation, H2H and other defensive methods, etc.
    Some do have only minimal introduction, yes. Many go well beyond that.

    Of course, the role of LEO's and non-LEO citizens is markedly different. The complete training regimen for LEO's isn't hardly required in order for the average person to understand (a) that a legitimate deadly-force attack is requiring action, (b) that an appropriate amount of force is justified in being applied at that moment, and (c) that a person has reasonably sufficient competence to engage at that moment.

    A CHL doesn't magically impart such things, obviously. Nobody would really believe it does, if asked, though some surely appear to act that way. One has the responsibility to acquire those things beyond the rubber stamp.

    But if any of the thousands of example CHL defended situations we read of in the news annually are any indication, that basic judgment, understanding and essential competence doesn't take a career's worth of intensive training to acquire.

    The whole array of other situations doesn't apply to use of deadly force, hence they aren't not really relevant to effectively bringing such force to bear in a deadly force attack on us. One need not "bring him in," when attacked. One need only recognize it for what it is, and then stop the attack.

    As the OP's scenario shows, anyone can recognize a situation for what it is, when the facts are known. In this case, it was seen the moment that bloody knife was in the hand of someone who looked like he'd use it in an instant. At that moment, IMO, most folks could easily know that any subsequent deadly attack could be legitimately and reasonably defended against. No CHL or related training would alter that.

    My $0.02. Opinions vary.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #89
    LLT
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    recognize a situation for what it is, when the facts are known. In this case, it was seen the moment that bloody knife was in the hand of someone who looked like he'd use it in an instant. At that moment, IMO, most folks could easily know that any subsequent deadly attack could be legitimately and reasonably defended against. No CHL or related training would alter that.

    Yes, but we're not really talking about a basic self-defense situation in this case. The OP didn't even know there was a knife until he'd left the building, entered the crowd of people and confronted the attacker. I think this is where better training could be involved (which, as a civilian, would be: "Stay out and call 911" There's a difference between defending yourself and trying to intervene and diffuse a situation without preparation or training. The OP's life was not in danger. He didn't know there was a knife, so as far as he knew, nobody's life was in immediate danger... the GM made the poor decision to enter the parking lot and try to "break up" a drug dealer fight and the OP made the poor decision to "back him up." There's nothing self-defense about this, IMHO.

    Naturally, others will have a different opinion.

  16. #90
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    There's nothing self-defense about this, IMHO.
    That's right.

    The only point at which it could begin to become self defense from the OP's perspective is if the person holding the knife (or anyone else) opted at that point to attack or threaten the OP. None of which occurred, beyond the "pushing back" or the OP, which could have been anything. Instead, the person with the knife exited in a vehicle, without threats.

    As I read the OP's description, only at the moment of seeing the knife was it clear that anything was wrong at all. At which point, sophisticated, high-intensity training variation might have been better to have. But coming up to some people that included colleague(s) doesn't seem to be a bad situation (at least, given what we're being told was known); and it doesn't seem to be viewed as seriously risky until the knife is seen.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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